Hello, I'm new to this site and have a few questions about this rifle that I recently bought. I sent an inquiry to JC Johnson about it and I have a few general questions I would like to post here. It is a Winchester High Wall with a heavy bull barrel that has M-BEE stamped on the barrel. The second line says CC Johnson in smaller letters. Is it correct to believe that the rifle is chambered for the Mashburn Bee?
The woodworking on the rifle is unique and I would not want to replace it, but would I devalue the rifle if I had it worked on to give it a better fit and finish? Right now woodwork doesn't come close to matching the metal work quality. I'm not sure yet what can be done. I bought this rifle because I liked the look of it and  want to keep it period correct. I'm new to collecting anything like this and I'm not sure how important originally is on a custom rifle from a renown gunsmith. Originality is important to me and I don't want to compromise it, but the woodwork is crude and I think it detracts from the rifle. What do you guys think?
I also would like to find out more about CC Johnson and the rifles he built. Were the rifles totally custom order or were they made up customized actions and then made to fit the buyer? I was thinking it would be interesting to see if there were other rifles made like this one.
Thanks for your thoughts and responses!

welcome. lots of info here, and great people too.

CC Johnson rifles are not common but Ohio probably has more than most areas.  A friend has two, Lo-Wall and Hi-Wall,  beautifully stocked in classic style.  My Lo-Wall Hornet has 4-groove cut rifled barrel, very heavy most likely by Charlie Diller, and very accurate.  The rifle has straight grain walnut in varmint style, probably Fajen.  Metal work superb.  Wood is plain and well fitted.  I'm using a 2 inch 12X Unertl Ultra-Varmint, calibrated head and get a lot of interest when I get to the range.

Thanks guys for the welcome.
I have read online that the woodworking on CC Johnson rifles was noticeably inferior to the metal work. Maybe CC Johnson sold barreled actions and the stocking could be done by the customer. The metal work was prepared for the stock that is on it. I will try to get some pictures.

Thanks again

Tualatin area

fullchoke wrote on Jun 19^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:


Reaching back into memory of articles I've read about Johnson, I have the impression that he did not do any woodwork himself.  Either farmed it out or left it to the customer.   

Charles Landis in his book "Twenty Two Caliber Varmint Rifles" mentions that, in the heyday of the .22 Lovell, he was putting out over 200 barrel jobs a year, so I'm inclined to think that he would not have had time to do wood as well.

There is a number under the forearm. It includes numbers and letters. I sent that to JC Johnson. I was thinking it might be a date code of some sort. I don't see a serial # on the rifle. The number is normally on the lower tang on a High Wall, but that area was worked on and I don't see a complete number.
I'm glad the stock was not part of his work as I want that worked on or replaced.

Thanks

C. C. Johnson from Halp's website;

Jerry has his grandfathers shop records and is usually happy to try to research rifles with the data submitted to him.  
There was another---  Johnson;  Eric, who was a top tier competitive 22 rimfire rifle shooter and builder.  If my memory is correct HIS records are the ones in the ASSRA archives.

CC did not usually build stocks and when he did they were functionally utilitarian but not of the quality that equals his metal work.  When you see a finely stocked CC Johnson rifle it was done by someone else. after all he was a highly skilled metal worker.   In the Springfield OH shooting club CC belonged to there was also a local guy who was a highly skilled amateur stock builder who produced really elegant stocks for a small number of CC's rifles for some of their fellow club members.

If it were me  .  .  .  .  .    VBG !!! 
   I'd consider preserving the original stock as it is; and completely restocking the rifle with a replacement stock that will suit your own needs and tastes.
Replacement stocks are available in unfinished form from a number of vendors. Most can be completed without too much difficulty using common tools with a bit of elbow grease and personal commitment.  I'm sure our fellow members can make recommendations 

EDIT:    ANY GUESS WHAT KIND OF RIFLE CC IS WORKING ON IN THAT PHOTO???

Wow!  I'm green with envy!

To actually see the place, the machinery, along with the builder of my rifle.....now that is special!

Great Picture!! Thank you Schutzenbob for posting it!

The photo is captioned "January, 1948" and a Google-check establishes that the wall calendar corresponds to that date.  Thanks for the suggestion calledflyer.

Bill Lawrence

Thats about the time My CC Johnson gun was in the shop.  its a beautifully stocked martini by that local craftsman, with a CC worked over action, and carefully fitted PH 22rf match barrel.  It was built for a local dentist, and the barrel has some interesting platinum wire inlays the dentist/owner probably did.

no2

no4

Fullchoke- that should clean up well, nice with the close coupled triggers.  That is the identical two piece stock set that is on my ccjohnson Hornet.  Out of curiosity what is you barrel length?

Great info, and always neat to have a gun that has traceable provenance. But now you're going to be looking for similar guns forever! 
I love old single shots by custom gun makers!

I PM'ed him. He is JC Johnson on this site. I followed his instructions in a thread he posted on this site. There should be a number under the  hand guard on the bottom of the barrel. It was under the spring on mine. It is very nice of him to do this.

I looked up Buhmiller and he was an accomplished barrel maker and african hunter. I feel very fortunate to know this about my rifle. Thanks to JC Johnson!

Through a couple very courteous exchanges, Mr. J.C. Johnson informed me that my highwall was not the work of his grandfather.  The five digit number under the forearm is not consistent with work records and the caliber marking, "32-40", is neither as neatly done as that of CCJ nor is it a caliber he ever provided. 

Hmmmm.  Well, I guess it's kind of like a dog I didn't buy for its pedigree (I just liked the looks of it) and it's been with me a while.   It shoots OK, I enjoy it and will pack it along tomorrow as I head to Etna Green. 

My thanks to Mr. JC Johnson.

marlinguy, never thought about CC Johnson and ,22 Caliber but you are right I think. I have not run into any CC Johnson rifle that was not a .22 Cal. I have one that I bought from Florida that was an all original Winchester HiWall in 32-40. Full Deluxe Schuetzen 3X wood and all the bells and whistles. He had Re-Barreled it in .222 Rem in about 1953, Neat floating Extractor
using a spring loaded plunger on the side to engage the Rimless cartridge. Worked fine. I was able to find a NOS Winchester #3 Barrel and restore it back to original configuration. Shoots really good. Regards, FITZ-G.

Mr. J.C Johnson told me that there are no records for other than .22 RF and CF done by CCJ.

oneatatime wrote on Jul 4^th, 2017 at 6:04pm:


Mine is marked "C.C. Johnson", thus counterfeit. Bought it from Florida maybe ten years ago from a guy who ran the website "Cobwebs."  Forgot his name.

Thanks Jerry! Confirms what I suspected.

Jerry's text says that his granddad fitted barrels for a wide variety of cartridges but ONLY relined for the ,22s    so that 32-40 and others might well have been a re-barrel job and not counterfeit.

If we knew what value a CC Johnson rifle commands over another rifle that's similar and unmarked, we could then see if there is any reason to attempt a counterfeit. A marginal difference  would not be worth the trouble, but I think that since the name CC Johnson is respected today and the fact that my rifle was special ordered from someone in California in 1947 makes me think that CC Johnson's work was respected back then too. We are in the collecting ss rifles forum, can someone who collects customized single shots give their opinion.

Thanks

As a fancier of custom built schuetzen rifles, I couldn't begin to put a price premium on any custom built gun, regardless of the maker. There's just too many variables to say it's a certain amount, or percentage. Every custom has to be examined and appraised for the total of it's features, condition, and what provenance comes with it beyond who made the barrel or gun.
Wish it was as simple as saying a CC Johnson, Pope, Schoyen, Zischang, etc. had a particular percentage added to it's value.
I would add that anyone owning any custom maker's gun(s) should do as much homework as possible to document the gun and the maker! The thicker your file is on the maker, the gun, or previous owners, the higher it's value will be now and in the future. I've seen many desirable guns that left owner's hands with little or no provenance ever acquired! I've spent months or even years documenting some I own, and was puzzled why previous owners didn't think enough of a gun with a maker or owner's name on them to take the time to document it?

But having two CC Johnsons making guns and marking them similarly throws a wrench in the works. Those that JC Johnson can check and confirm provenance to his grandfather, will obviously garner more money, but can't say how much more.

No offense meant to CC Johnson, as I'm a big fan of the barrel work he did! But at this point in time I believe that his name on a barrel will add a little to the value, but not like the added value of the most famous barrel or gun makers of earlier times.
I think if all things are equal, a CC Johnson marked barrel, that JC Johnson can document, will certainly be worth more than a no name barrel. I know I'd pay some extra for equal guns with one being a CC Johnson. But it would have to be a .22 or I wouldn't give it a 2nd look.

As for fakes. There are numerous cases of fakery in old guns with famous maker's names. Most can be identified quickly to an experienced eye, as they rarely get the rifling correct, or mess up on barrel markings. A close examination of the markings can often reveal they are engraved, and not rollstamped. All the famous makers had their own rollstamp, so an engraved marking is suspicious. It may be the marking was restored, but I'd still be suspicious, and hesitant to pay much for it.

This may be of interest to this discussion.

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Aaron

As CCJ's grandson, I find it somewhat amazing that 45 years after his final retirement and 41 years after his death there is a small but regular interest in him and his work. I receive around 25 requests a year for info on one of his rifles and 5 to 10 for info about him.
Pope, Niedner, Ackley and Eric Johnson are much more widely known, but CCJ did have a loyal following.

My path has intersected with the CCJ tradition a few times starting with a high wall varmint gun I bought back in the early '90s.  At first glance it had one of the two ugliest stocks I've ever seen on a high wall, which of course he had no hand in.  He had built a round 22 R barrel (not a reline) along with a no-safety-notch, speed locked, single set trigger, and it worked quite well except the bore was solidly blocked about midway through and irreparable.  I just used the action with recovered original wood and original 38-55 bbl I found to build a shooter for a friend of mine. I wish I could have exterminated a few VA groundhogs with it in varmint trim, but that was never to be.

Then I got interested in the Red Head presses which nicely complemented my vintage little Lyman stuff, and I bought one of those.  Kinda cool and in the range built by CCJ. 

Finally, I got really lucky and ran into Jerry Johnson at Etna Green at a Nationals, and really was able to connect with the CCJ tradition in a big way. Jerry shared his time and memories with me, showing me "family guns" from his father and grandfather as well as the work files he mentioned previously and some goodies from the Red Head project as well.

Charles C Johnson was a fascinating man, very talented and contributing a great deal to our sport with both his gun work and his manufacture of affordable reloading equipment as well.  I've enjoyed getting to "know" him, even second handedly.

Froggie