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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin? (Read 9095 times)
Joe_S
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is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
May 22nd, 2017 at 10:21pm
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I have about 60 pounds of 30/1 lead/tin alloy which I believe is contaminated with zinc. I have not been able to get good bullets all year long, (about 7 attempts). I read somewhere that sulfur will remove zinc, (not sure if it is safe ) and that sawdust will also do so. Does anybody have any recommendations? 
Thanks!
Joe S
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #1 - May 23rd, 2017 at 10:07am
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Yes I clean contaminated lead by scooping off the stuff that floats on top as soon as it melts.

Melting Points:

Zinc: 787 F.
Lead: 621 F.
Lead/Tin Alloy: 514 F.

You can bring the temperature up to melt the lead or lead/tin alloy before the zinc will melt.

Before the temperature gets too high scoop the unmelted zinc off. You will not loose any of your lead or tin alloy that way; but be able to scoop off the zinc and other impurities. 

You have to watch the pot as it warms up to see the point where the lead and tin melt but the zinc floats to the surface.
  
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UtahDave
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #2 - May 23rd, 2017 at 11:17am
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Dave is correct if the zinc is still in solid form mixed into say range lead or wheel weights. During melting the zinc pieces will float on molten lead and can be removed.  Unfortunately, some of the zinc will dissolve into the lead and make a real mess.   

Once the zinc is dissolved in the lead then the lead will have to be "refined".   There are several ways to do this, none of them very easy or perfect.   Adding sulfur to the molten lead mixture is one way but it has problems.   The sulfur forms zinc sulfide which floats on top of the lead and can be skimmed off.  A major problem is the sulfur burns and forms sulfur dioxide which is both quite harmful and will corrode steel.   I would only do this outside with proper safety equipment and a breeze.   It may require several treatments to remove the zinc.   Copper is also removed by this technique.  You will have to remove all of the remaining sulfur and flux the lead to clean it up.   

The other way to remove zinc is to oxidize the lead using compressed air.  This is really risky because if you have some condensed water in the air line you will have a big explosion!  If you want to do this I would use a small steel tube (1/4") and a needle valve to control air flow.    Oxidation will also remove tin so maybe this is not such a good idea.   It has to be done at a high temperature (say 800 F) and will make a lot of lead fume.   

Good luck and be safe, 
Dave 
  
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Joe_S
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #3 - May 23rd, 2017 at 1:07pm
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Thanks for the replies. I am a little concerned about the safety issues in using the sulfur, but it seems like a viable option. Can you please elaborate as to what safety equipment I would need? I have about 30 pounds of 30/1 lead/tin (and zinc) in a steel pot and about 30 more pounds of rejected bullets. I always wear long leather welding gloves and a leather apron, with eyeglasses on and old leather shoes. 
I also heard that sulfur can be obtained at lawn and garden shops but I have no idea how much I would need or what product to ask for. Any ideas? If it can be done relatively safely I am willing to give it a try.

I read an article online about the use of sawdust as a flux, which purportedly removes zinc but not tin. I have been using sawdust along with candle wax as a flux and have noticed a gradual but very slow improvement in the quality of the bullets, still no where near where I want to be. If this is a viable option I am willing to try it but at some point I might have to just cut my losses and start with a "clean" patch. Trouble is, I have been using lead pipe and tin and have no idea how the zinc got in. 
I don't make sinkers and don't need a boat anchor, but If anybody needs scrap lead, let me know. 
Joe S
  
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UtahDave
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #4 - May 23rd, 2017 at 4:48pm
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On reflection I think you are better off, and safer, if you just sell the lead for anchor or fishing weights.    Even if you only got half price you would be better off buying pure lead and pure tin and making your own alloy.   

Even if you did decide to de-zinc with sulfur you would make a mess and it would probably take several treatments, but even then you would not know what you ended up with.   Heating the lead to red heat (watch the fume) and allowing it to oxidize will remove the zinc but also the tin.  You will make a lot of dross (scum).  You will also not have a clue what the residual tin concentration is although measuring the hardness might give a clue. 

For fire refining lead I recommend that in addition to the normal safety equipment for casting molten metal lead I would wear a face shield and a respirator (not dust mask), not something most people have.   

Sawdust will not do anything at all.  I don't know why people say that but it sounds like folk lore.  There are so many misleading and downright dangerous suggestions on the Web that I would be very careful.   

Good luck, 

Dave
  
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #5 - May 23rd, 2017 at 7:47pm
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TIME has a cost.

Agree, if one cleaning session doesn't clean it up, sell it off.

  

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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #6 - May 24th, 2017 at 6:36pm
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Depending on your annual consumption of Schuetzen bullets buying pre mix good quality tin/lead from Roto Metals is cheaper than cleaning up junk lead. Figure the gas alone not even counting the time spent. 

Your bullet is the key to success false economy to shoot the cheapest possible material in the most important  component.

Boats
  
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John Boy
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #7 - May 25th, 2017 at 9:41am
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why not going to the scrap yard and have them do a XRF of some of melt to determine if in fact it is contaminated with zinc and the percentage?
Presently you only think it is contaminated
  
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Joe_S
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #8 - May 25th, 2017 at 8:39pm
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I had no idea such technology existed. I will contact some of the local scrap dealers to see if anyone can to that for me. 
Regarding the purchase of alloy from Roto Metals, my annual consumption of 30/1 alloy would be about 70 lbs per year at a cost of$205 plus $72 for shipping for a total of $277. I agree that spending hours trying to use contaminated lead would not be productive, but as long as I have several hundred pounds of lead pipe it is cheaper for me to give the contaminated lead away and make up a new batch, so that is what I will do. 
Thanks for your help everyone!
Joe S
  
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ledball
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #9 - May 29th, 2017 at 2:22pm
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Charlie Dell told me one time, it cost a lot more money to get the zinc out of the alloy, than the alloy was worth.   Led all
  
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #10 - May 31st, 2017 at 11:17pm
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Joe, 

If you really have just lead pipe then I think you can recover some very good lead if you don't include any soldered joints (they look larger than the pipe) and don't add any wheel weights or other 'unknown' stuff.  I've used a lot of lead pipe that I was able to buy at a local scrap yard.   It was dead soft and worked fine.  I ran out of that stuff and have switched to RotoMetals for pure lead.  The postman hates me Wink

You can also add tin by finding some 50%/50% lead/tin solder.  It is probably more expensive than just buying pure tin from Roto metals or some other source but it will be fine.   

I'm not a big fan of the quickie X-Ray machines.  They are OK for identifying one metal versus another but to detect lower percentages of zinc, tin or other crappy alloying agents in lead they would need to be calibrated against known standards before they can be trusted.   That is expensive and not likely to happen.   

Good luck, 

Dave
  
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #11 - Jun 2nd, 2017 at 9:23am
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The short answer is no. Once it is an alloy it will not separate. Dump it out and start with good lead and tin from known sources.

40 Rod
  
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #12 - Jun 3rd, 2017 at 4:34pm
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Sell it. All done. Not to be a wise guy but a lot of effort and in the end you will never be sure of your Alloy. That is critical because you need to know how to reproduce an Alloy that produces really good shooting. Just my thoughts as I have followed this thread. Regards FITZ-G. Smiley
  
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Joe_S
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #13 - Jun 4th, 2017 at 8:45pm
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I dumped the contaminated lead and put 30 lbs of lead pipe in the pot. I melted it and fluxed with candle wax and planer shavings about six times. then I warmed up a mold and it casted two perfect bullets. At that point I concluded the lead was probably uncontaminated. I then added tin and made a bunch of good bullets. 
I have a large supply of lead, mostly from lead pipe and roof flashings, and some dental x-ray lead. 
Some of the lead is ingots but a lot of lead pipe and roofing flashing, etc is under my bench. In order to clean up the mess under the bench I have been working with the lead pipe and flashing, and x-ray lead foil, and occasionally throwing an ingot of lead in when I am in a hurry. I suspect the contamination came from the ingot, so from now on, I will flux the hopefully pure lead thoroughly and cast a test bullet before I add tin. If some zinc gets in, I want to find out before I dump  $20 worth of tin in. I hope this works.
Thanks for all the good advice!
Joe S
  
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Re: is there a good way to remove zinc from lead/tin?
Reply #14 - Jun 4th, 2017 at 10:43pm
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Be carefull some of the old roof flashing was  zinc it came in rolls about 12 inches wide and about .060  thick it's stronger than lead for the same thickness, it will dam sure mess up your mix.
HTH  LD1
  
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