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uscra112
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Another Stevens curiosity
May 11th, 2017 at 11:12pm
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I seem to be a magnet for weird.   I bought a Favorite barrel on-line last month, claimed to be .25 Stevens rimfire.   It's an early "94" style, with the two-diameter shank.  It has the four-flat quasi-octagon that I've seen on some Favorites. Five digit s/n 16232.  Has the two-line rollstamp with the 1894 patent date that we are all so familiar with.

Now the fun part.  It is NOT a .25 Stevens barrel.  Chamber mouth measures about .256".  Bore (what there is left of it) appears to be in the vicinity of .228".   Chamber depth seems to be about 1.1".  This all points to .22 Maynard, but that was a centerfire cartridge.   Barnes does not list any rimfire with those dimensions.

Ideas ?   A factory custom?  A 120 year old land-mine left by Stevens to confound 21st century collectors?  

Shame the seller had already sold the receiver and breechblock - that might have given a clue.  I asked. 
  

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Redsetter
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #1 - May 11th, 2017 at 11:28pm
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uscra112 wrote on May 11th, 2017 at 11:12pm:


Shame the seller had already sold the receiver and breechblock - that might have given a clue.  I asked. 


I hate these FAHs who break up matched parts--and there are plenty of them.

But why did you want a .25RF anyway? 
  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #2 - May 12th, 2017 at 12:30am
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Because of the recent post here about how to make fresh .25 RF ammo out of .17 Winchester Super Magnum Rimfire.  I just love projects like that.  

Bought that particular barrel so I could make a switch-barrel starting with .22 Favorite that I have.
  

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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #3 - May 12th, 2017 at 10:12am
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I may have found a clue.  Jim Perkins, in "American Boys Rifles" mentions that the Favorite could be had on special order chambered for "22-7-45".   I have no inkling what the dimensions of that cartridge may have been.  But if that fits, I call upon all the gods to rain down hellfire on the man who broke the rifle up.  How many can there have been?   Cry
  

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waterman
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #4 - May 12th, 2017 at 12:26pm
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Isn't 22-7-45 another name for a .22 WRF?
  
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #5 - May 12th, 2017 at 5:07pm
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waterman wrote on May 12th, 2017 at 12:26pm:
Isn't 22-7-45 another name for a .22 WRF? 


That's it, and that's what it's called in Stevens catalogs.  Understandable that Stevens wouldn't wish to invoke the name of their great competitor, but there's also a woodcut of the cartridge labeled "W.R.F." that looks like it could have been copied from a WRA catalog!
  
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slumlord44
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #6 - May 12th, 2017 at 9:40pm
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I am assuming that it is not marked which would be unsual for a factory barrel. I have a niced Favorite in .22 WRF with a pristine bore. I believe it is a 1915 but would have to dig it out to be sure. The .22 WRF Favorite is a hard one to find. The .22-7-45 rings a bell and I am thinking it was a centerfire and available in a Favorite Ladies Model but the memory is on the fuzzy side since surgery.
  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #7 - May 12th, 2017 at 11:19pm
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No, no caliber markings on the barrel at all.  The exterior is almost pristine.  Could be a re-blue, but the underlying metal doesn't look at all like a caliber stamp has been polished off.   

I've got the same vague feeling about 22-7-45, that it was a tiny centerfire.   

The Ladies Model was offered chambered 22-15-45, according to my catalogs.   Tomorrow I'm going to get my borescope out to see if I can get more certainty on the chamber depth measurement.   Maybe I've got it wrong, and the thing is actually a 22-15-45.   

Meanwhile I'm wrestling with an ethical quandary: Do I go ahead and reline it to .25 Stevens as I originally intended, or do I preserve it as an historical artifact?   Undecided

  

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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #8 - May 12th, 2017 at 11:40pm
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uscra112 wrote on May 12th, 2017 at 11:19pm:
I've got the same vague feeling about 22-7-45, that it was a tiny centerfire.  


Are you thinking off the .22-15-60?  But that's not it; the .22-7-45 is a rimfire, unless you disbelieve Stevens own description--p. 115 in #52.

As for your ethical quandary:  send whatever it is to "Forged in Fire," and challenge them to turn it into a Bowie knife!   


  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #9 - May 13th, 2017 at 1:34am
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OK, that answers that.  ( I don't have any cattledogs that are that new.)

Gotta be 22-15, and I measured the chamber depth wrong.  No way to do a cast, it's much too rough in there.

  

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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #10 - May 13th, 2017 at 3:17pm
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Borescope inspection not conclusive; except there's marks in near what might have been a throat that a clearly evidence that a drill bit has been in there.  Reckon it's a fools errand to try to figure out anything more.   I'll go for a reline and be happy.

  

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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #11 - May 14th, 2017 at 7:17pm
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IF the larger part of the shank measures 0.80 long by 0.690 diameter and the smaller part is 1.130 by 0.630 dia, and it has a 7 o'clock extractor notch , and the breech is recessed for the rim, and the serial number is on the bottom of the barrel, and up to 69,000 (the highest I have seen), and possibly has a boxed X at each end of the J Stevens address on the top flat of the barrel, it may be for an 1894 7 o'clock extractor Favorite.  If you reline, try 22 cal and wait for the rest of the gun to show up on ebay?

James
  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #12 - May 14th, 2017 at 7:59pm
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Correct on all counts.  

Do you have any hard info on when they abandoned the straight sequential numbering?  I haven't a clue, but assuming a start in 1894, 69,000 is a lot of production.  Are there 7 o'clock models that have the letter-number code?     

And at what point did they abandon the two-diameter shank? I have nothing in between my .32 RF one (s/n 56888) which has it, and a 1915, which doesn't.  Maybe at the same time that the central extractor came in?

I'm still going to line it for .25 Stevens.  I don't have one, and I'd like to have one with a perfect bore, to see how well the .25 can be made to shoot.  It fits up OK to a .22 action that I have. The .22 barrel from that one I will line back to .22.   

Having deleted evilBay from my life, I can't be looking for the rest of s/n 16232 anyway.
« Last Edit: May 14th, 2017 at 8:11pm by uscra112 »  

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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #13 - May 14th, 2017 at 9:07pm
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uscra112 wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 7:59pm:
\I'm still going to line it for .25 Stevens. 


Who has a .25 Stevens reamer?
  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #14 - May 14th, 2017 at 9:37pm
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CH4D lists one for rental.   If that doesn't prove out I'll have somebody grind me one.  Hang the expanse.  I want what I want.
  

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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #15 - May 14th, 2017 at 10:53pm
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Good luck making one shoot extremey well. The .25 Stevens was designed as a hunting round. In my opinion ammo is the deciding factor. I have 418 Walnunt Hill's in .22 Short, Long Rifle, .22 WRF, and .25 Stevens. All with pristine bores. Have shot Canuk and some old Remington ammo and the .25 always shoot the least accurate groups. If you could come up with better ammo based on the .17 Winchester Super Magnum I think it could be better. Would love to see that happen as I have several .25 Stevent guns with good bores to play with it.
  
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #16 - May 14th, 2017 at 11:07pm
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uscra112 wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 9:37pm:
...Hang the expanse.  I want what I want.


That philosophy I understand all TOO well.

And how sad to think...all those poor desperate owners of .25 Stevens guns in nice shape dying to find some buyer who actually WANTS one!

If only I'd bought that really slick #3 Ballard in .25 Stevens that I once seriously considered yrs ago, your desires would be gratified immediately; but I passed on it, though reasonably priced.   


  
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #17 - May 14th, 2017 at 11:27pm
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I have looked at about 350 different favorites' "serial numbers" from live ones, ebay, etc over the past 3+ years and recorded them in notes and am near to making conclusions to report.  Members of this blog have also contributed some also.  It looks like that the side plate favorites MAY be in the same numerical serials as the 7 o'clocks, but so very few of them were made, it's hard to tell.  I have #4515, a 7 0'clock, but it is much higher than any of the very few side plates I have discovered.  As previously stated I have observed 7 o'clock models up to about #69,000.

It looks like the letter - numerals started with the 6 o'clock favorites and they look like about every letter in the alphabet and the letters were repeated almost at random throughout production.  My first favorite had an ampersand - & - and I have found one other so marked, but so far, no other non letter symbols.  A was probably used early and one was found with 4 numbers, but not sure if that was a fluke.  About 1900 has been mentioned as the end of the 7 o'clocks, but I'm not so sure at this point based on survival numbers and density.

Variations of the width of the extractors seem to be very early, sort of T shaped, and antedated the barrel nuts which came fairly early, and which slightly outlasted the "boxed X" around the barrel address.    I'm trying to wrap this up within a few months and plan to write it up and send it to the Journal.  Any contributions, especially side plates or weird ones would be appreciated., looking for approximate letter-numbers, barrel markings, calibers, leaning block types (cut back or flat top), unusual butt plates, etc.  These contributions will not be "pseudo-statistical", but would be helpful.

Thanks, James Hays, jbkhays@centex.net
  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #18 - May 15th, 2017 at 12:21am
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Well, well, James.  Thank you!  I've done the same for the Model 44s.  A lot of work, and I wasn't too interested in starting over on Favorites.   

@ Slumlord -  We'll see.  I've already bought two boxes of .17 WSM, and will be working out how best to extract the bullet and reform the brass.  Making tools, buying a shell-holder, all in good time.  Maybe think about how to chamber the new liner to optimize accuracy.  The factory chamber was of course a hunting chamber, and originally for black powder at that.

@James - Have you been able to determine whether all the 7 o'clock models have the stepped shank?    

BTW in my survey, I have found that the "boxed X" rollstamp comes and goes.  It's not an indicator of age.
  

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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #19 - May 15th, 2017 at 1:08am
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The stepped shank looks like its characteristic of the 7 o'clock ones, but a majority of them do not show the shank on the usual for sale description.  They look like all visible have the boxed X, but not all are visible.  The factor that determined whether they could be in this study was the serial number, visible or stated with some reliability.  Tang lengths and other variations could not be included because they were almost never measured or described.  Looks like the boxed X disappears early in the 6 o'clock sequence and it MAY be a measure of age, too early to tell yet.

James
  
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #20 - May 16th, 2017 at 9:58am
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Here's the process I use to make 25 Stevens reloads:
* Trim 1.403 length on 22 Hornets down to 1.130
* Run 22 Hornet brass in a 25 Hornet FL sizing die - to reduce the web
* Run the cases into a 25 Hornet Expander die to expand the case just past the shoulder
* Re-run the cases back into a 25 Hornet FL sizing die
* Fireform the brass
* Trim brass to 1.125, the case length of a 25 Stevens
* Reloaded with either 7-8-9grs BP (original BP charge 10-11grs) and 3-4grs of 2400 smokeless  using the Lyman 257420 - 72gr bullet
Results that the reloads drop into the chamber with ease
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #21 - May 16th, 2017 at 11:11am
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Above procedure looks good but omits one small detail: converting from RF to CF.
  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #22 - May 16th, 2017 at 11:24am
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How does a .25 Hornet die reduce the web of a .22 Hornet?  They are the same, I allus thought.

And a .25 Stevens rifle has a groove of .250", a bit small for a .257 bullet.
  

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John Boy
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #23 - May 16th, 2017 at 11:46am
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Quote:
Above procedure looks good but omits one small detail: converting from RF to CF.
The block was bushed from RF to CF by my gunsmith
  
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #24 - May 17th, 2017 at 12:15am
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slumlord44 wrote on May 14th, 2017 at 10:53pm:
Have shot Canuk and some old Remington ammo and the .25 always shoot the least accurate groups...


Possibly the Rem was already so old that it had deteriorated; but the Canuck was made to a level of "quality" sufficient only to dispatch trapped animals, or slaughter hogs. I bought many boxes of it in both .32 & .25 in the '70s when it was not too expensive, but after trying it in several guns, gave up on it.   

However, test results from the '30s when good US ammo was still available lead me to believe there was no inherent design flaw in the cartridge itself--Whelen, Allyn Tedmon, others, praised it for hunting.  Even then, it did not measure up in accuracy to the best 22LR, but that may have been a result of ammo makers disinclination to bring such a slow-seller, relative to 22s, to its full potential.
  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #25 - May 17th, 2017 at 4:15am
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Has anyone got a few .25 Stevens cartridges and a caliper?   

Here's my problem:  The O.P. on this thread 
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is using a .251" bullet in his cartridges made from .17 WSM.   Barnes lists the bullet for the .25 Stevens as .251".   BUT, John Boy is using a .257" bullet, and lo-and-behold when I measured my somewhat tatty .25 Stevens Model 12 Marksman just now, it is bored and rifled for a .257" bullet.   

What the heck????   Was there a change at some point?  Is Barnes wrong?  (And by extension willsweptline is also using the wrong bullet?)    I'm not finding any help in my books and cattledogs.    

I have no factory .25 Stevens cartridges to measure.  A little help would be appreciated.  No need to pull a bullet, just measure the O.D. of the loaded cartridge at the case mouth.

Phil 

  

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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #26 - May 17th, 2017 at 8:54am
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uscra112 wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 4:15am:
Is Barnes wrong?


In any reference book of that size & scope, you can be SURE there will be some errors.

There's a full-page drawing of the cartridge in Rim Fire Rifleman, with all specs provided--bullet dia. given is .257.  (Writing in 1947, author notes it's "probably doomed to obsolescence.")
  
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waterman
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #27 - May 17th, 2017 at 3:47pm
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I have written this before.  I have a Stevens Model 47, with a 44 action, the face of which is marked 47 and EX.  It has a half-round barrel with ordinary Stevens markings and is stamped 25-20 in ordinary Stevens script. It is chambered for the ordinary 25-20 Single Shot cartridge.

But inside is a 17" twist and a .251 groove diameter.  I have shot it for years with .257 lead bullets (before I ever got round to slugging the barrel.  Since then, I have tried 60 and 74 grain harder lead bullets and 85 to 87 grain soft lead.  The heavier bullets are far more accurate, but the rifle will not stabilize any heavier bullets.  Now I need to get some of those .251 air rifle bullets and try them.
  
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uscra112
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Re: Another Stevens curiosity
Reply #28 - May 17th, 2017 at 8:23pm
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A couple of years ago I bought a virtually new Stevens 44 barrel from another member here.  It is .257 groove, but was chambered for .25 Rimfire.  He didn't want it, because his .25 RF projects were all centered around .251 bullets. 

Thinking it was just a screw-up, I proceeded to cut a .25-20 chamber in it and fit it to one of my centerfire actions.   Hindsight's always 20-20, but I wish I hadn't done that now. 
  

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