Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Which "F" to use (Read 7455 times)
calledflyer
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3994
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #15 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 6:25pm
Print Post  
Beep, where did you find a listing with the .44 Spl. that was loaded with black? I've never heard of that. I have a couple of early boxes and lots of loose rounds, and never saw any ads or catalogs with black.
What'd I miss? Or did that list you had intend it to be the .44 American or Colt? I wonder, because I don't recall either of them in solid head- could be wrong there, though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #16 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 6:36pm
Print Post  
cf,
WRA Catalogue No.77, October 1911, p152 shows the 44 S&W Special listed with a 246gr bullet and 26grains of black powder (granulation not mentioned).
Smokeless 44 S&W Special loading is also mentioned as available, but as a rule in those days, WRA didn't provide their smokeless loadings info, and discouraged the practice of loading with the new-fangled powder.

The 1910 Rem-UMC catalog, p90, also shows the 44 S&W Special listed with a 246gr bullet and 26grains of black powder (granulation not mentioned), with UMC No 2 primer.
Rem-UMC also has their Smokeless 44 S&W Special version with UMC No 7 primer, and like WRA, doesn't provide smokeless powder data.
« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2017 at 6:54pm by BP »  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #17 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 6:50pm
Print Post  
Gentlemen - don't over study what grade of powder to use for this 44 Magnum reload because whatever grade of BP is used they all will go Boom and there is no concern about excessive pressure due to a charge because BP is a weak powder.
* Bullet weight will factor the velocity
* Grade of powder is immaterial because BP is weak to generate excessive pressure
* Grade of powder will determine fouling
* Compression depth determines burn rate & SD's
* Quality of the powder will factor all of the above
- Olde Eynford is a relative moist burning powder as is Swiss then KIK then Goex and Elephant
- With the same powder charge, the difference between fps using the same bullet weight will be no greater difference than 100 to 150 fps between FFg & FFFg
Here's some fps examples using different 45LC bullet weights (close case capacity to 44 Mag)
40gr FFFg - 250gr bullet - 833 fps
40gr FFg - 250gr bullet -  779 fps
40gr FFFg - 200gr bullet - 901 fps
40gr FFg - 200gr bullet -  907 fps

So again, for more velocity - moist foul ... my recommendation again is Olde Eynsford FFFg, charged so the base of the bullet not seated touches the top of the charge that has not been settled with no wad.  Then just seat the bullet that compresses the powder no more than 0.25" and put a hard factory crimp on the case.  Might want to start with 42gr of powder


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #18 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 7:33pm
Print Post  
frnkeore wrote on Apr 1st, 2017 at 5:56pm:
BP,
That is excellent info!

My input on this is, that I always use as course a granulation as is practicle. I only use FG for 32 cal and above, including the 30 cal, 32's like 32 Rem's and Stevens. I use FFG for anything else and test against FG I never use FFFG.

The courser the granulation, the less "fines" you have and that can give you better velocity averages (SD).

Frank

Frank,
I agree with your thinking.
Long ago, when I first saw the early WRA info that showed they were using the coarser granulations not only in the large rifle cases, but also in the small caliber/small capacity rifle and pistol cases too, and using different granulations for specific loadings in the same cartridge, and then started experimenting in the opposite direction from those who said "Just cram your damn case full of FFF", I learned some purdy useful lessons.    Smiley

calledflyer,
Here's my current stock of 44 Special balloon-head cases. 
Some came loaded with black, some with smokeless.
There's WRA, Western (nickel and brass cases), Peters, Rem-UMC with two differing headstamps.
The 246gr roundnose bullets that came out of that brass had hollow base cavities. Some smokeless rounds contained a felt wad with a thin paper flashing on both sides of the wad.
There's a lot of things you can learn by breaking down old factory cartridges from the good ole' days.     Wink
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
calledflyer
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3994
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #19 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 8:10pm
Print Post  
Thanks for the .44 Spl. tutorial, guys. And, here I thought I knew the ol' cartridge! Long a favorite of mine, and yet so little knowledge.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Longcarbine
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Butler, Mo.
Joined: Mar 28th, 2017
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #20 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:07pm
Print Post  
Thanks for all the info fellas. One more question, small or large, regular or magnum primers.
  

"The reason a dog has so many friends, He wags his tail instead of his tongue."

"Your life style determines your death style."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
George Babits
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1151
Joined: Sep 27th, 2012
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #21 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:18pm
Print Post  
Well, black powder didn't work worth a crap in my origianl '92 rebored to 44 mag.  If you really want to know how it works in your JapChester try it yourself and see what you come up with.  Every rifle is different.  If you want to know what your's does, experiment instead of asking.  It is the only realy way to see what works. 

George
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Longcarbine
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Butler, Mo.
Joined: Mar 28th, 2017
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #22 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:59pm
Print Post  
George Babits wrote on Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:18pm:
Well, black powder didn't work worth a crap in my origianl '92 rebored to 44 mag.  If you really want to know how it works in your JapChester try it yourself and see what you come up with.  Every rifle is different.  If you want to know what your's does, experiment instead of asking.  It is the only realy way to see what works. 

George


Just looking for some guide lines, have never reloaded before. Sorry to have bothered you George.
  

"The reason a dog has so many friends, He wags his tail instead of his tongue."

"Your life style determines your death style."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #23 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 10:17pm
Print Post  
Longcarbine wrote on Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:07pm:
Thanks for all the info fellas. One more question, small or large, regular or magnum primers.

Longcarbine,
Have you checked to see if 44Mag brass is even made to use small regular or small magnum primers?
If you find out that it isn't, well then, you can cross those primers off the list before you start...
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Longcarbine
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Butler, Mo.
Joined: Mar 28th, 2017
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #24 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 10:33pm
Print Post  
BP wrote on Apr 1st, 2017 at 10:17pm:
Longcarbine wrote on Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:07pm:
Thanks for all the info fellas. One more question, small or large, regular or magnum primers.

Longcarbine,
Have you checked to see if 44Mag brass is even made to use small regular or small magnum primers?
If you find out that it isn't, well then, you can cross those primers off the list before you start...

Yes I was just looking into that, I believe I need to use large pistol primers, just wondering if regular or magnum or is there a difference.
  

"The reason a dog has so many friends, He wags his tail instead of his tongue."

"Your life style determines your death style."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #25 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 10:51pm
Print Post  
Quote:
One more question, small or large, regular or magnum primers.

First of all, let's define the ignition difference between smokeless powder and black powder (gunpowder) ...
Quote:
Gunpowder is classified as a low explosive because of its relatively slow decomposition rate and consequently low brisance. Low explosives deflagrate (i.e., burn) at subsonic speeds, whereas high explosives detonate, producing a supersonic wave.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Accordingly, to obtain the better deflagration, ignition of BP, where the whole powder ignites ... one wants to use a low brisance primer ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Low brisance primer - Federal 205 SR
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
High brisance primer - RWS LR
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

I have no brisance pictures of SP or LP primers.  But pressure curve graphs of LR primers and the brisance picture of the Federal SR and Federal LR has the lowest comparative pressure curve. So since LP primers are used for the 44 Mag, give Federal 150 LP primers a try for the best deflaguration of the powder column in the 44 Mag
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #26 - Apr 2nd, 2017 at 4:28am
Print Post  
John Boy,
How much of a shift in your brisance pressure curve graphs does the use of primer pocket papers made from recipe cards cause?
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #27 - Apr 2nd, 2017 at 10:27am
Print Post  
Quote:
How much of a shift in your brisance pressure curve graphs does the use of primer pocket papers made from recipe cards cause?

BP, I don't have the $800 testing equipment to do any pressure curve testing.  What I used was from a site I copied down for smokeless LR curves which didn't identify the use of any over pocket material.   
But theoretically, I would assume the BP curve would increase or remain the same,primer dependent -  due to the decrease in brisance from the primer.
The subject of better ignition has been discussed many times over the years on  Shiloh Rifle forum but not measured.  I used construction paper, not cardboard, for a couple of years with reloads of 500gr bullets.  Found that with and without with either in the pocket and behind the pocket - no significant improvement in velocity or accuracy.  And no, never measured the reloads with a chrono for fps - ES or SD 
Sorry, can't  factually answer your question
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 
Send TopicPrint