Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Which "F" to use (Read 7441 times)
Longcarbine
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Butler, Mo.
Joined: Mar 28th, 2017
Which "F" to use
Mar 31st, 2017 at 3:47pm
Print Post  
I plan to re-load for my .44mag with black powder, What do you recommend 2ff or 3ff.
  

"The reason a dog has so many friends, He wags his tail instead of his tongue."

"Your life style determines your death style."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fred Boulton
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 801
Joined: Jan 6th, 2007
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #1 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 3:50pm
Print Post  
Why do you want to use black powder in a calibre which was developed with and for smokeless?
Fred
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Longcarbine
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Butler, Mo.
Joined: Mar 28th, 2017
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #2 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:15pm
Print Post  
Fred Boulton wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 3:50pm:
Why do you want to use black powder in a calibre which was developed with and for smokeless?
Fred


Because I have an 1885 low wall and I want to shoot black powder in it.
  

"The reason a dog has so many friends, He wags his tail instead of his tongue."

"Your life style determines your death style."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 18097
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #3 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:36pm
Print Post  
My understanding is that 1Fg and 2Fg are for larger bores, and rifles. 3Fg would be appropriate for the .44 Magnum.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Longcarbine
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Butler, Mo.
Joined: Mar 28th, 2017
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #4 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:47pm
Print Post  
marlinguy wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:36pm:
My understanding is that 1Fg and 2Fg are for larger bores, and rifles. 3Fg would be appropriate for the .44 Magnum.

I know the rule of thump for muzzleloaders is .50cal and above use 2ff and anything under use 3fff, but read some where that you get a better burn with 2ff in a cartridge because of more air space between the grains. Just curious, will most likely go with the 3fff.
  

"The reason a dog has so many friends, He wags his tail instead of his tongue."

"Your life style determines your death style."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #5 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 10:21pm
Print Post  
I have tried all three granulations in quite a few rifle and revolver cartridges to see how original black powder load duplications from the old books performed, using original balloon head and later smaller capacity solid head brass.
The different granulations do give different results.
And the old catalogs from the different ammo and black powder suppliers like WRA, Rem-UMC, Dupont often differed on the granulations they themselves mentioned for use for a particular cartridge, and it's not always mentioned.

« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2017 at 11:10pm by BP »  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #6 - Mar 31st, 2017 at 10:27pm
Print Post  
One would think so just as different burning rates of smokeless powder would also do so. It really did not help to answer the gentleman's question as I see it my also having some intrest in what he had asked?

JLouis
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1734
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #7 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 5:44am
Print Post  
Longcarbine wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:47pm:
marlinguy wrote on Mar 31st, 2017 at 4:36pm:
My understanding is that 1Fg and 2Fg are for larger bores, and rifles. 3Fg would be appropriate for the .44 Magnum.

I know the rule of thump for muzzleloaders is .50cal and above use 2ff and anything under use 3fff, but read some where that you get a better burn with 2ff in a cartridge because of more air space between the grains. Just curious, will most likely go with the 3fff.


Pretty good with round ball, bot not really so with conicals.  Rifle and handgun is also different...  Still, both should work acceptably.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
George Babits
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1151
Joined: Sep 27th, 2012
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #8 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:31am
Print Post  
Years ago I tried black powder in my 1892 Winchester which had been converted to 44 magnum.  I used FFFg.  The whole experiment was a complete waste of time, energy, and powder.  After that I got another 1892 in 44-40 which did a whole lot better.  If you want to shoot black powder in that get it rechambered to 44-40.

Cheers,
George
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Longcarbine
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 62
Location: Butler, Mo.
Joined: Mar 28th, 2017
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #9 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 10:05am
Print Post  
George Babits wrote on Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:31am:
Years ago I tried black powder in my 1892 Winchester which had been converted to 44 magnum.  I used FFFg.  The whole experiment was a complete waste of time, energy, and powder.  After that I got another 1892 in 44-40 which did a whole lot better.  If you want to shoot black powder in that get it rechambered to 44-40.

Cheers,
George


What problems did you run into.
  

"The reason a dog has so many friends, He wags his tail instead of his tongue."

"Your life style determines your death style."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Hiwall55
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 468
Location: west central Illinois
Joined: Jun 30th, 2012
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #10 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 10:08am
Print Post  
I think the neck thickness was the difference in44mag and 44-40. If you expand the neck in 44 mag to .001 grip on bullets it will shoot as good as the 44-40
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #11 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 11:41am
Print Post  
The 44 Magnum being a straight wall case with black powder - as is incurred with any straight wall case - will generate substantial blow back if the reload charged with low powder charges and the case crimp is light.
OK, my recommendation is Olde Eynsford FFFg, charged so the base of the bullet not seated touches the top of the charge that has not been settled with no wad.  Then just seat the bullet that compresses the powder no more than 0.25" and put a hard factory crimp on the case
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzenmiester
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 6707
Location: Cool Wet Side of WA
Joined: Apr 27th, 2008
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #12 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 1:09pm
Print Post  
George Babits wrote on Apr 1st, 2017 at 9:31am:
Years ago I tried black powder in my 1892 Winchester which had been converted to 44 magnum.  I used FFFg.  The whole experiment was a complete waste of time, energy, and powder.  After that I got another 1892 in 44-40 which did a whole lot better.  If you want to shoot black powder in that get it rechambered to 44-40.

Cheers,
George

Wonder why it would be different that a 45 Colt?  Twist?
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #13 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 5:30pm
Print Post  
Approximate solid head case capacities in grains H2O:
44 S&W Russian       22.76
44 S&W Special        29.61
45 S&W Schofield     30.87
44 Colt                    30.93
44 Rem Mag             33.94
45 Colt                    37.45
44 WCF (44-40)       38.42
Add in the old balloon-head cases and you've got more case capacities to add to the list.
All of the above, except the 44 Mag, were factory loaded with black powder, using various powder grades and powder granulations from various powder suppliers to the ammo manufacturers.
There were a wide variety of bullet weights and styles, black powder charges and granulations used for those cartridges...  the standard full charge loads using the standard configuration and weight solid and hollow-point bullets, the reduced loads using lighter weight "sharp corner lead" etc for mid-range target, and light conical and round balls for gallery use.
Standard rifling and revolver twists varied among manufacturers.

Here is a very small sampling from early WRA catalogs...     
     Dupont Rifle F.F.G. shown as suitable for:
44 Win (44-40)
38-55 Short Range
32-40 Short Range
32 S&W Long
32 Win (32-20)
25-20 Single Shot
25-20 Win
22 Winchester Single Shot (22 WCF)
     Dupont Rifle F.G. shown as suitable for:
44 S&W Russian
44 S&W American
44 Webley
38-55
32-40
32 S&W Long
25-20 Single Shot

Note that on the abbreviated listing above, the 38-55 and 32-40 used different granulations for their different respective loadings.
Also note that the 32 S&W Long and 25-20 Single Shot are shown using both granulations without any notation of different loadings.
Be glad you chose the 44 Mag instead of the 32 S&W Long, as there is an additional footnote for the 32 S&W Long that states... Can also use Hazard Powder Company's "Kentucky Rifle F.F.F.G." , which shows that WRA used three different granulations of black powder in that little bitty case.
Winchester (and others) didn't use one specific granulation of black powder for a specific cartridge case.
You'll have to experiment with the different granulations to work up a black powder load that works for you in your 44 Mag case in your particular gun.
« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2017 at 8:02pm by BP »  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7674
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: Which "F" to use
Reply #14 - Apr 1st, 2017 at 5:56pm
Print Post  
BP,
That is excellent info!

My input on this is, that I always use as course a granulation as is practicle. I only use FG for 32 cal and above, including the 30 cal, 32's like 32 Rem's and Stevens. I use FFG for anything else and test against FG I never use FFFG.

The courser the granulation, the less "fines" you have and that can give you better velocity averages (SD).

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint