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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Winchester patent chamber insert (Read 13611 times)
shoothog
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Winchester patent chamber insert
Mar 9th, 2017 at 3:19pm
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I found this among some 32-40 brass. Thought it was a nickel case until further investigation.

  
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shoothog
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #1 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 3:25pm
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Other side
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #2 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 3:34pm
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What are they used for? Go no go gauge?
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #3 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 3:50pm
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Is that a sub caliber adapter so you can shoot a pistol cartridge in a rifle?
  
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waterman
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #4 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 3:51pm
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The idea was to be able to use low powered revolver cartridges in your center-fire rifle for practice, plinking, etc.  They were made in several .30 and .32 calibers.

Ken Waters did a rather detailed article on them.  It is in his Pet Loads book.
  
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BP
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #5 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 4:07pm
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Those were called the "Winchester Supplemental Chamber".
The 32-40 and 32 Win Special used the 32 Colt cartridges.
The 30 WCF, 30 ARMY (Krag), 30 Gov't 1906, 303 Savage and 303 British used the currently more readily avaikable 32 S&W cartridge.
The 405 used the 41 Short Colt.
Have two originals for the 30 WCF, and once asked Rocky Mountain if they could make up some of the others, but they said Nope.
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #6 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 5:13pm
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I have a supplemental chamber for my .30 US that uses rimfire blanks and .30 cal lead bullets that you finger seat to shoot. I tried a few and found them reliable, but not so accurate in my ol' highwall. I have one of the Winchester versions but never tried it out.
  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #7 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 5:31pm
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  Well, that's quite a find! I'll bet it's worth more than the rest of the brass, unless we're talking about bushels of 32-40 brass. Grin
  They must have been woefuly inaccurate, the Colt cartridge using a .313 bullet. Good enough for a slaughterhouse though.
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #8 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 6:11pm
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Jeff that is what had me wondering as well and that being how would a .312 bullet work in the 32-40's .312 bore diameter. Mann has stated on occasion that bore diamter bullets proved to be more accurate than groove so it makes me wonder how well the Long Colt bullets actualy shot? Then again I don't understand fully how the case adapter actually worked so could someone please explain the entire process of it's actual use.
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #9 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 6:16pm
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Jeff and John,
Which 32 CF Colt's are you thinking of, the outside lubed versions, or the inside lubed versions?
If the bullet hit qtr-minute of bunny, grouse, etc, they were accurate enough for their intended purpose.    Cheesy
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #10 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 6:46pm
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I also understand Marbles made them as well. I believe I saw a display on them at a collectors show many years ago and thought it was an interesting idea.

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BP
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #11 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 6:56pm
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I've seen the Marbles versions, but seem to recall them being designed differently with the cartridge being towards the front of the adapter, so your firearm's firing pin struck a transfer pin which then struck the primer of the cartridge.
Winchester positioned the cartridge at the rear of their supplemental chambers, so the firearm's firing pin struck the primer of the cartridge directly, and there wasn't any tranfer pin to get lost somewhere in the brush.
« Last Edit: Mar 9th, 2017 at 7:02pm by BP »  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #12 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 7:24pm
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BP wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 6:56pm:
...there wasn't any tranfer pin to get lost somewhere in the brush.


Not likely--it's retained by a screw.  Never had one (though I've always wanted to try one out), but there's a cross-sectional drawing in my 1905 Marble's catalog.  It's actually called "Brayton's Auxiliary Cartridge."

By positioning the bullet at or near the origin of the rifling, accuracy ought to be better than with the other design, though probably not great in either case.  But not much was expected, as the idea was to use them for pot-shooting small game while hunting big game, like fool-hens perched on a limb a few yards away.


  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #13 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 7:44pm
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BP wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 6:16pm:
Jeff and John,
Which 32 CF Colt's are you thinking of, the outside lubed versions, or the inside lubed versions?
If the bullet hit qtr-minute of bunny, grouse, etc, they were accurate enough for their intended purpose.    Cheesy

  What's the difference?
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #14 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 7:50pm
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Bullet diameters and base cavities?
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #15 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 8:02pm
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JLouis wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 6:11pm:
Mann has stated on occasion that bore diamter bullets proved to be more accurate than groove so it makes me wonder how well the Long Colt bullets actualy shot?


Was there a groove-diameter base band on those bullets?  Otherwise, there'd be gas-cutting.
  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #16 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 8:06pm
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BP wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 7:50pm:
Bullet diameters and base cavities?

  Yeah, go ahead, I'm all ears.
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #17 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 8:16pm
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Jeff_Schultz wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 8:06pm:
BP wrote on Mar 9th, 2017 at 7:50pm:
Bullet diameters and base cavities?

  Yeah, go ahead, I'm all ears.


The inside-lubed bullets would have been smaller by the thickness of the case walls, whatever that is, expanding at the base (theoretically) like a Minie ball.   
  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #18 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 8:39pm
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I used to have a small collection of those cartridge adapters in Marbles and Winchester. The Winchester ones were tough to find, as I figured Winchester collectors grabbed them up quickly. Some worked pretty well, while others were pretty poor accuracy.
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #19 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 2:41pm
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Thank you all for your contribution of knowledge and experience about and with this device.

Do any of you have any idea as to value? Haven't been able to find any reference to a recent sale of one of these.

Thanks again and best regards
  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #20 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 4:28pm
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These supplemental chambers, whether Winchester or Marbles, are in my experience quite uncommon.  And while Winchester examples, no surprise, generally sell for a little more, clean, usable examples (which for Winchester refers especially to the plating) are generally offered for $25-$40 each.

If you just want to try such an accessory, a large number of new-made chambers are available from MCA Sports & CE Bullet Co.; there web site is (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links).

Bill Lawrence
  
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BP
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #21 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 4:43pm
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Be sure to check the inside for corrosion.
Some weren't cleaned inside very well after having been used, and they do go back to the black powder and corrosive priming era.
« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2017 at 5:30pm by BP »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #22 - Mar 10th, 2017 at 4:57pm
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Sold mine years ago for $10 each, but last I saw were around $25-$30 for nice clean ones.
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #23 - Mar 20th, 2017 at 7:09am
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There was a guy at a Richmond, VA gun show many years ago selling a variety of newly made chamber inserts.  I bought the 32-40 size (of course) and played with it a little then put it away.  It took 32 S&W long cartridges, IIRC.

FROGGIE
  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #24 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 11:38am
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One exactly like that one sold last nite on ebay.  I quit watching it at about $38.00.  Already spent my allowance on more important stuff.
James
  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #25 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 5:13pm
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James

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #26 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 6:24pm
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Was the seller providing any outside-lubricated Short or Long Colt to go with it?
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #27 - Mar 24th, 2017 at 10:15pm
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I have the 30wcf.....never used it but in the gun locker getting dusty Wink   Ol Deuce
  

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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #28 - Mar 26th, 2017 at 3:40pm
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By accident ran across a review of supplemental chambers in the 5th ed. Gun Digest Treasury.  A Marbles chamber tested in a .30-30 produced 3-shot groups of 1" at 25 yds.; but as the author stated, hitting a grouse at that range was all that was expected.  Best of the devices appeared to be one made by RWS similar to the Marbles with its own spring-loaded firing pin.   

I live where there are fair grouse populations, and a few times I've encountered one that loitered long enough to make itself a good target, assuming the chamber was loaded and ready to fire.  But 99% of them flush without my even seeing them, so instead of a supplemental chamber, a can of sardines might be the hunter's wiser choice.
  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #29 - Mar 27th, 2017 at 11:13am
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I much prefer venison jerky to those smelly, greasy little fishes.

But back to the L. O. L. vs L. I. L. bullets:  My vocabulary got obscenely expanded trying to make outside lubricated 38 heel bullets work for my 38 extra long rolling block, ruined a couple of thin walled rare original cases.  Then I found a rare number 8 Ideal tool, casting deep hollow base bullets, and that solved the dilemma.  Now the bullets don't fall out before they are supposed to, and they work well in the accuracy department too.

James
  
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Re: Winchester patent chamber insert
Reply #30 - Mar 27th, 2017 at 5:03pm
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Redsetter wrote on Mar 26th, 2017 at 3:40pm:
By accident ran across a review of supplemental chambers in the 5th ed. Gun Digest Treasury.  A Marbles chamber tested in a .30-30 produced 3-shot groups of 1" at 25 yds.; but as the author stated, hitting a grouse at that range was all that was expected.  Best of the devices appeared to be one made by RWS similar to the Marbles with its own spring-loaded firing pin.  

I live where there are fair grouse populations, and a few times I've encountered one that loitered long enough to make itself a good target, assuming the chamber was loaded and ready to fire.  But 99% of them flush without my even seeing them, so instead of a supplemental chamber, a can of sardines might be the hunter's wiser choice.

Get a dog to keep the bird's attention focused away from you so you can get closer?
  

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