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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Yawing 32-40 bullets (Read 19500 times)
Travelor
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Yawing 32-40 bullets
Mar 6th, 2017 at 6:33am
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This weekend I shot my CPA 32-40 in competition for the first time.  The barrel is a Bresien (sp?) with a 1:15 twist and the bullet is a Saeco 732 weighing 205 grains.  I am charging with 14.2 grains of IMR 4227 for an estimated 1490 fps.

At 100 yards the group was good, but in reviewing the target I noticed a bit of yawing. At 200 yards the bullets were definitely yawing at about a 30+ degree angle and groups were poor.

Need a little hand holding to get this problem straightened out.

Thanks,
  
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sharps4590
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #1 - Mar 6th, 2017 at 7:50am
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My first thought is the bullet may be a bit long for that twist at that velocity.  Have you checked it against the Greenhill formula?  It could also be the barrel simply doesn't like that bullet.  Given my limited experience with the 32-40 I will defer to other opinions.

Dr. Fredrick Mann covers this very issue in his book "The Bullet's Flight"...once you get your head wrapped around it.
  
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KAF
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #2 - Mar 6th, 2017 at 8:01am
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A bit of "yawing"  keyholing is fine IF they go where they should go in a nice group.
Increase the charge in small increments (2 tenths) until keyholing stops, or pressure problems start showing up.

  
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40_Rod
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #3 - Mar 6th, 2017 at 8:53am
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I'm pretty shure it is a little long, nothing that a little more powder won't cure. Raise the charge to 14.5 grains of 4227. That is the charge that we all used when I first started.

40 Rod
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #4 - Mar 6th, 2017 at 9:08am
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I'm surprised that you saw a bit of yawing at 100.  I shoot that bullet with black powder (~1350 fps ) and I have never seen yawing at 100, but I do very often at 200 depending on the weather.  Cold weather is worse.

If you knock out a seated bullet, is it engraved uniformly all around?  If it's not central to the bore it will bump up such that it is out of balance.

Chris.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #5 - Mar 6th, 2017 at 11:26am
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Your not anywhere close to 1490 fps (more like +/- 1400) at your charge of 4227. Your bullet has a short fat nose and the CG is further forward than a spitzer design and needs a little more twist or more velocity. A lot of people have had tipping with that bullet. If the barrel is a button rifled barrel, they are only guaranteed to 1/2" twist, meaning it could be 15.5 twist.

As everyone is saying, increase your powder charge. Start at 14.5 and increase by .2 up to 15.0. 15.0 is not a high pressure charge. I've shot 16.5 gr with <MOA with 185 - 205 gr bullets in 32/40.

If you have 296 or H110 powder, try ~15.0 gr of it. That load will shoot very, very well. I believe it's shoot a 1247 out of 1250 at Raton.

Measure your twist rate and make sure there is no leading, too.

Frank
  

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JLouis
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #6 - Mar 6th, 2017 at 3:02pm
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Length of the bullet and not the weight which varies quite abit based on alloy choice should be whats being referenced. The 15gr. load I believe is indicative to Rick MacHales accomplishments at Raton and his typical load was actually 15.1grs of 296 pushing a 234gr. bullet in a gain twist barrel ending at about 11. Not quite apples and oranges per-say. A freind is using a comparable bullet to yours, 205gr. Darr FN in his 15 twist Bresien without issue and he also shoots it in his 16 twist Darr rifle. Elevation here I believe is quite abit different and also a factor but I would take a close look at your muzzle crown you should not be having a problem with bullet stabilization. I would be looking more towards your verticle dispalacement as an indicator of the need to up your powder charge if the tipping is just a slight amount and it could be a false indicator by the target backer being used and especially so if using cloroplast by chance and or not standing plumb to the world but leaning, twisted and or both.

JLouis
  

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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #7 - Mar 7th, 2017 at 6:53am
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Thank you guys for your help.

Next range day I will work on increasing the powder charge and now have a breech seater to assure proper alignment of the bullet in the barrel.
  
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CajunRebel
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #8 - Mar 7th, 2017 at 10:38am
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Schuetzendave wrote on Mar 7th, 2017 at 9:19am:
For 32 caliber rifles:

1:15 twist 180-190 grain bullets
1:14 twist 200 - 210 grain bullets
1:12 twist 220-235 grain bullets
1:11.5 twist 235-250 grain bullets


If not following these guidelines will accuracy and/or stability suffer?  I have a 1/15 twist .32-40; 208gr non-tapered bullet (fixed) is stable at 1400-1450fps.  Can I assume accuracy will improve with a lighter bullet?
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #9 - Mar 7th, 2017 at 4:52pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Mar 7th, 2017 at 12:45pm:


Since I shoot from sea level to 7,000 feet and at all barometric pressures and from -40 to 110 F.; I have found the proper twist is essential whether I shoot in Northern Canada; the dry southern deserts, or the Pacific Northwest coast.



Dave, how much are you varying your powder charge traveling through those extremes?
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #10 - Mar 7th, 2017 at 7:03pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Mar 7th, 2017 at 5:28pm:
Variation of only a tenth grain (winter vs. summer); but may have to adjust the Weber depth seater to fine tune for a new range.

No variation for Spokane since it is my base setting.


What happens that cause the seater to change?
  

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JLouis
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #11 - Mar 7th, 2017 at 8:59pm
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Try not to get to hung up on a tenth of a grain change all though it might be more specific to the small capacity cases it generally does hold true for those having more powder volumne / air space of which can possibly require yet more based on personal experience. It is also dependant on how much the temperture changes based on location and a 20-40 degree change in my area can be quite common during a full days match. Powder charge consistency / velocity is achieved by maintaning the same powder volume and not by by weight as the powder either gains or looses mositure for various reasons and more dependant on differant areas across the country.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2017 at 9:17pm by JLouis »  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #12 - Mar 8th, 2017 at 2:10am
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Schuetzendave wrote on Mar 7th, 2017 at 8:27pm:
You adjust the seater to fine tune for weather changes; specifically changes in barometric pressure, elevation and temperature.

The barrel vibrations are less and more constant; once you have found the powder sweet spot, however extreme changes in temperature may require a slight tenth grain adjustment of the powder (i.e winter versus summer powder load).

I have a record of my Weber seater depth for Spokane; which has been tuned for Spokane's May weather and Spokane's elevation. The settings were also close for Edmonton.

Of coarse it would need to be adjusted slightly for Raton's higher elevation and usually higher barometric pressures and higher temperatures.


I assume you are talking about smaller cases like RKS, ect.

Guess I need to get out more  Grin  I never noticed any differences that I could not attribute to other factors in my 33-47.  Mostly shooting on the coast and Spokane being so steep, my offhand stock is definitely a limiting factor. 

I wonder what high humidity in the Midwest would change?
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #13 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 5:45pm
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cant say much for the "adjustments" at Etna Green,  temp, humidity, moon phase????    I don't shoot at the level Cheesy     I think I've heard guys talking about adding a grain or two (not grain weight--I think) at times.  most of the time the diff between the winners and the rest of us is "managing" the wind conditions.     Of course the real winners don't talk much Grin
  

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Re: Yawing 32-40 bullets
Reply #14 - Mar 9th, 2017 at 10:23pm
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DW it really has nothing to do with all of the Voodo but practice, practice, practice and more pratice. Most who are not serious cannot tell when their rifle is shooting up to par or not and they just keep sending lead down range with only a hope and a prayer. But as long as they are having a boat load of fun while doing so it really does not matter to them in the least as should be and it more than meets their own exspectations and I admire them for doing just that and simply just having fun. 

JLouis
  

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