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Stevens 25-25 (Read 7867 times)
jfeldman
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Stevens 25-25
Feb 27
th
, 2017 at 11:34pm
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A previous thread and comments about long skinny cases got me to thinking about some 25-25 WRA cartridges I found at the last Tulsa gun show. I had read in COW that they were designed by a Capt. Carpenter as the first straight shell. I pulled the bullet and it weighs 86 grains and has a hollow base.?? It also appears to be knurled which surprised me. Did they shoot these without any lube at all?
Regards, Joe
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BP
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #1 -
Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 12:08am
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That knurling looks pretty standard, and most of the lead bullets I've pulled from balloon-head cases have had hollow or cupped bases.
If you look inside the case necks, you'll often see the old dried lube has left discolored rings.
I do have one full box of 25-25 cartridges, but they have old flat-nosed soft-points with silvery jackets.
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
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Redsetter
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #2 -
Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 12:35am
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jfeldman wrote
on Feb 27
th
, 2017 at 11:34pm:
I had read in COW that they were designed by a Capt. Carpenter as the first straight shell...
Regards, Joe
Don't know where Barnes came up with "Capt. Carpenter," but he's mistaken; it's a Herrick design.
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BP
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #3 -
Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 2:45am
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From the No. 15 Ideal Handbook, in reference to the 25-20 SS and 25-20 Repeater cartridges:
"
Not being satisfied with either of the above .25 calibers, Captain W. L. Carpenter of the 9th U.S. Infantry called on our Mr. Barlow, who made for him, from a solid brass rod, the first model shell, which has since become famous as the .25-25 Stevens ; so called because the Stevens Arms Company made the first rifle for it. ...
"
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #4 -
Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 12:52pm
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BP wrote
on Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 2:45am:
From the No. 15 Ideal Handbook, in reference to the 25-20 SS and 25-20 Repeater cartridges:
"
Not being satisfied with either of the above .25 calibers, Captain W. L. Carpenter of the 9th U.S. Infantry called on our Mr. Barlow, who made for him, from a solid brass rod, the first model shell, which has since become famous as the .25-25 Stevens ; so called because the Stevens Arms Company made the first rifle for it. ...
"
Generally I'd regard the Ideal HB as reliable evidence, but in this case, I'm more inclined to trust Harvey over the HB. Dr. Mann also mentions Herrick's name in several places, but doesn't explain who he was, which is something I'd like to find out. Someone lucky enough to own the Shooting & Fishing set might find references to him there.
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #5 -
Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 3:39pm
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Have just been going through my copy of Yours Truly page by page (because it's un-indexed) to find Harvey's remarks on this cartridge, and finally on page 218, stumbled across the place again. He says: "The .28-30 cartridge, along with the .22-15 & .25-25, were designed by my old friend Charles Herrick of Boston. He was one of the most expert riflemen & chuck shooters in the country. The last time I saw him was at the Walnut Hill matches in 1938." Harvey's letter is dated 1971.
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BP
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Re: Stevens 25-25
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Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 3:43pm
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Did Herrick have a working relationship with Barlow at Ideal?
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
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Re: Stevens 25-25
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Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 4:16pm
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BP wrote
on Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 3:43pm:
Did Herrick have a working relationship with Barlow at Ideal?
No idea. This Capt. Carpenter is someone who might also be referenced in Shooting & Fishing. If he was interested in designing small caliber cartridges, he must have been a chuck hunter and/or match shooter.
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cheatin_charlie
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #8 -
Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 4:44pm
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Cartridges of the world also credits Carpenter as the creator of the 25-25.
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #9 -
Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 4:45pm
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My information also states that Charles Herrick of Winchester, Mass. designed the .28-30-120 for Stevens. But it says the .25-21 and .25-25 were designed by Capt. WL Carpenter for Stevens.
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RSW
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #10 -
Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 5:23pm
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In a source I came across (I can't remember positively at the moment but I think is was Shooting & Fishing) Capt. Carpenter was credited with designing the 25-25 in about 1895 and the 25-21 in 1897. That source went on the reveal that the 25-25 earned a reputation for hard extraction which was solved by the slightly shorter 25-21. Additionally stated was that the 25-21 gave essentially the same performance as the 25-25 (with straight black powder). According to that source, both required careful wiping between shots to deliver best accuracy with black powder.
«
Last Edit: Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 5:34pm by RSW
»
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Redsetter
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Re: Stevens 25-25
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Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 7:18pm
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RSW wrote
on Feb 28
th
, 2017 at 5:23pm:
In a source I came across (I can't remember positively at the moment but I think is was Shooting & Fishing) Capt. Carpenter was credited with designing the 25-25 in about 1895 and the 25-21 in 1897...
Much of S&F was written by A. C. Gould, so I checked Modern American Rifles, but it was published in 1891.
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #12 -
Mar 1
st
, 2017 at 8:47pm
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There's too much reference material to wade through to check, but I remember that the .25-21 was invented by "John" or "Jim," last name unknown, a hunting pal of the fanatical squirrel shooter, wildcatter and inventor Reuben Harwood, who, as "Iron Ramrod," wrote up his experiences in
Shooting
and
Fishing
under the title of "Vacation Echoes."
It seems "Jim/John" had tried the .25-20 and didn't like the bottleneck shell, so went to the .25-25, but found it overpowered. He shortened the straight shell to more or less the capacity of the .25-20 and pronounced it perfect. Harwood endorsed this judgement with his usual enthusiasm, and soon the cartridge was being factory loaded, and rifles factory chambered.
By the way, The Massachusetts Arms Co. had no more right to add its name to the .25-20 Single Shot than the Stevens Company did. It was invented by Francis J. Rabbeth (pen name "J. Francis") and for several years was called "the .25 Caliber Cartridge" because at the time there was no other.
What cartridges were proprietary depended a lot upon whether the gun factory had an ammunition division attached thereto. The .25-20 Repeater was actually a Marlin Fire Arms development, but the Winchester Company adapted it to their 1892 rifle and started making .25-20 WCF headstamped shells for it. With no ammunition plant, Marlin was in no position to stop them.
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #13 -
Mar 1
st
, 2017 at 11:24pm
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Bent_Ramrod wrote
on Mar 1
st
, 2017 at 8:47pm:
By the way, The Massachusetts Arms Co. had no more right to add its name to the .25-20 Single Shot than the Stevens Company did. It was invented by Francis J. Rabbeth (pen name "J. Francis") and for several years was called "the .25 Caliber Cartridge" because at the time there was no other.
The development of the cartridge by Rabbeth was well known at the time through discussions in The Field and Shooting & Fishing, but Maynard being first to put a gun on the market chambering that cartridge would give them naming rights, I think it's fair to say, if they chose to exercise them. Wish someone would dig up an 1886, or later, Maynard catalog to find out exactly what they called it.
Never heard Marlin had anything to do with development of .25-20 repeater cartridge; seems a little dubious.
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frnkeore
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Re: Stevens 25-25
Reply #14 -
Mar 2
nd
, 2017 at 3:21am
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Quote:
The .25-20 Repeater was actually a Marlin Fire Arms development, but the Winchester Company adapted it to their 1892 rifle and started making .25-20 WCF headstamped shells for it. With no ammunition plant, Marlin was in no position to stop them.
This could be so, as Marlin introduce their 1889 before Win's 1892. A Marlin Catalog could tell the story.
I had a 1889 but, it was in 32/20 and sold it before I could do any research on it.
Frank
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