A previous thread and comments about long skinny cases got me to thinking about some 25-25 WRA cartridges I found at the last Tulsa gun show.  I had read in COW that they were designed by a Capt. Carpenter as the first straight shell.  I pulled the bullet and it weighs 86 grains and has a hollow base.??  It also appears to be knurled which surprised me.  Did they shoot these without any lube at all?

Regards, Joe

jfeldman wrote on Feb 27^th, 2017 at 11:34pm:


Don't know where Barnes came up with "Capt. Carpenter," but he's mistaken; it's a Herrick design.

BP wrote on Feb 28^th, 2017 at 2:45am:


Generally I'd regard the Ideal HB as reliable evidence, but in this case, I'm more inclined to trust Harvey over the HB. Dr. Mann also mentions Herrick's name in several places, but doesn't explain who he was, which is something I'd like to find out. Someone lucky enough to own the Shooting & Fishing set might find references to him there.

Did Herrick have a working relationship with Barlow at Ideal?

Cartridges of the world also credits Carpenter as the creator of the 25-25.

In a source I came across (I can't remember positively at the moment but I think is was Shooting & Fishing) Capt. Carpenter was credited with designing the 25-25 in about 1895 and the 25-21 in 1897. That source went on the reveal that the 25-25 earned a reputation for hard extraction which was solved by the slightly shorter 25-21. Additionally stated was that the 25-21 gave essentially the same performance as the 25-25 (with straight black powder). According to that source, both required careful wiping between shots to deliver best accuracy with black powder.

There's too much reference material to wade through to check, but I remember that the .25-21 was invented by "John" or "Jim," last name unknown, a hunting pal of the fanatical squirrel shooter, wildcatter and inventor Reuben Harwood, who, as "Iron Ramrod," wrote up his experiences in Shooting and Fishing under the title of "Vacation Echoes."

It seems "Jim/John" had tried the .25-20 and didn't like the bottleneck shell, so went to the .25-25, but found it overpowered.  He shortened the straight shell to more or less the capacity of the .25-20 and pronounced it perfect.  Harwood endorsed this judgement with his usual enthusiasm, and soon the cartridge was being factory loaded, and rifles factory chambered.

By the way, The Massachusetts Arms Co. had no more right to add its name to the .25-20 Single Shot than the Stevens Company did.  It was invented by Francis J. Rabbeth (pen name "J. Francis") and for several years was called "the .25 Caliber Cartridge" because at the time there was no other.

What cartridges were proprietary depended a lot upon whether the gun factory had an ammunition division attached thereto.  The .25-20 Repeater was actually a Marlin Fire Arms development, but the Winchester Company adapted it to their 1892 rifle and started making .25-20 WCF headstamped shells for it.  With no ammunition plant, Marlin was in no position to stop them.

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This could be so, as Marlin introduce their 1889 before Win's 1892. A Marlin Catalog could tell the story.

I had a 1889 but, it was in 32/20 and sold it before I could do any research on it.

Frank