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pilch303
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.22 ss
Feb 24th, 2017 at 5:59pm
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Hello Guys! 
I am new here and am from Australia.
I shoot quite a few single shot rifles.....ruger no 1 in 308, pedersoli sharps in 45/90 and a couple of martinis.

At the moment a guy is trying to sell me a 1885 low wall that is marked on the chamber 22 SS.
He seems to think it is a 22wcf but i am wondering if it isn't .22-16-60?


Could anyone shed some light as to what a 22 SS is please?
Pilch. Smiley
  
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BP
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #1 - Feb 24th, 2017 at 6:12pm
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COTW shows that both the 22WCF and the .22-15-60 Stevens have a rim diameter of 0.342".
But the base diameter of the 22WCF is listed at 0.295", while the base dia of the .22-15-60 Stevens is listed at 0.265".

Campbells book on The Winchester Single-Shot contains a footnote on page 97 that states " (1) The Winchester Single-Shot is simply another name for the 22 WCF. The listing is included here in case any " .22 SS " caliber stampings are encountered.
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2017 at 6:24pm by BP »  

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pilch303
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #2 - Feb 24th, 2017 at 6:34pm
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Cheers, thanks for that! Smiley
  
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JLouis
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #3 - Feb 24th, 2017 at 6:49pm
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The 22-15-60 Case is just shy of being 3 inches in length so it would be some what easy to rule in or out by just looking down the chamber.
  

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Re: .22 ss
Reply #4 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 12:27pm
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My 22 WCF low wall in the 99,xxx serial number range, base crudely measures 0.292-.295 give or take a little rust.  It is marked 22 WCF for sure.  The Ideal mold number is 228151, 45 grain.  Old Savage Hi Power bullets are also .228, namely 228367 in various weights.  I don't know whether the more modern, smaller diameter bullets can obturate enough to fill the grooves, haven't got that far yet.
James
  
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coljimmy
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #5 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 1:15pm
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Farther reading in my old (1926?) Ideal book says that 22636 and -37 in various weights are for .22-15-60 Stevens Straight, .228 are for 22-10-45, .22Extra Long C. F., 22-13-45 Winchester, and .22 Savage High Power.  And that 22636 and -37 and -38 hollow point can be sized .26 or .28.  Finding any of these molds in the outback would be like finding a diamond ring on the sidewalk in a Mexican border town.  I think the s s  means Stevens Straight.

Stevens seems to have had a fetish for the longest, skinniest cartridges possible.  Good luck.

James
  
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Redsetter
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #6 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 7:13pm
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coljimmy wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 1:15pm:

Stevens seems to have had a fetish for the longest, skinniest cartridges possible.
James


The 22-15, 25-21, & 25-25 were designed by Charles Herrick as alternatives to older bottle-neck cases; would be interesting to know his reasons.  Was this to allow the use of over-powder wads for reduced charges, perhaps?  Or was there reason to think BP would burn more efficiently in such cases?  Straight sided cases are easier to clean, but I would guess he had better reasons than this.   

His relation to Stevens is something else I've never seen an account of; did he work for Stevens, or compete using Stevens rifles?
  
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uscra112
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #7 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 8:03pm
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I've long believed that Winchester used the letters SS to cover for the fact that they were chambering for a competitor's cartridge.   

One or two Stevens catalogs touted as an advantage to the .25-21 that because the inside of the shell was straight, you could load lesser charges.  By implication the shooter would push the bullet down on the overpowder wad to avoid airspace.  I have a .25-21, but I don't use black powder, so have never had occasion to try it.
  

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Re: .22 ss
Reply #8 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 8:50pm
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uscra112 wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 8:03pm:
I've long believed that Winchester used the letters SS to cover for the fact that they were chambering for a competitor's cartridge.  


Actually, the first '85s chambered for this cartridge were marked 25 WCF!  I bought one at a show about 40 yrs ago thinking it was the "real" 25 WCF, and was badly bummed the first time I tried to insert a 25 WCF cartridge, which was after I left the show!  At that time, the SS case was almost impossible to find, so I traded the gun as quickly as I could.

The 25-20 SS designation wasn't used or needed until the 25-20 repeater cartridge was introduced in Model '92s in about '93.

Harvey Donaldson's book contains a chapter on development the 25-20 SS.
  
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #9 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 10:41pm
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Looking at the J Stevens Catalog No. 50, in the cartridge description section, it's interesting to note that the catalog illustrations of the long straight cigarillo shaped .22-15-60 (introduced in 1896 according to the catalog), .25-21-86, .25-25, and the .28-30-120 cartridges all having the word STEVENS suffixed onto their respective catalog cuts, but the bottlenecked 25-20 carries the suffix CENTRAL FIRE without the STEVENS.
I’ve often wondered if this seeming discrepancy in the catalog was due to the earlier Maynard’s having chambered the bottlenecked 25-20 single shot cartridge.
I have seen Stevens rifles chambered for the 22-15-60 cartridge having the 22-15 SS barrel marking.

In the WRA catalogs issued in 1886, the model 1885 rifle section lists the .22 WCF as one of the available chamberings, but when you go to the ammunition section of those same catalogs, the catalog cut shows the cartridge listed as the .22 WINCHESTER SINGLE SHOT ,  not as the .22 WCF.
Those WRA catalogs show the .22 WINCHESTER SINGLE SHOT cartridge loaded with 15 grains of black powder and a 45 grain lead bullet, so it might have also been called the .22-15-45 cartridge, or maybe the .22-15 SS cartridge. 
In 1890, WRA shows the .22 WINCHESTER SINGLE SHOT cartridge was now loaded with 13 grains of black powder and a 45 grain lead bullet, so it could then have been called the .22-13-45 cartridge, or maybe the .22-13 SS cartridge. 
In 1896, Stevens says they introduced their straight walled .22-15 SS cartridge.
The WRA catalogs, in the ammunition section, continue to show the .22 WINCHESTER SINGLE SHOT cartridge up to and including Catalogue No. 78, dated Jan 1913.
In 1914, WRA Catalogue No. 79, in the ammunition section, the catalog cut shows the .22 WINCHESTER CENTER FIRE cartridge.
  

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Re: .22 ss
Reply #10 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 10:53pm
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BP wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 10:41pm:
I’ve often wondered if this seeming discrepancy in the catalog was due to the earlier Maynard’s having chambered the bottlenecked 25-20 single shot cartridge...


Harvey said Maynard first offered it in '84. (Which means that Frank Barnes' date of '82 is incorrect.) Not yet listed, however, in the Maynard catalog of '85, which is the only one I've got (a repro).  Don't know how it was designated by Maynard, but, being first, they had every right to call it the .25 Maynard.  As of '88, Stevens had not yet listed it in their catalog, so calling it 25-20 Stevens was a little cheeky.
  
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uscra112
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #11 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 11:14pm
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@BP - I've taken that designation of the .25-20 Central Fire as being meant to distinguish from the already popular .25 Stevens rimfire, but it could just as well be an admission that it wasn't one of their proprietary cartridges.

OTOH, somewhere in my hard drive, however, is a photo of an antique ammunition box clearly labeled .25-20 Stevens.  So at some point they did try to claim it, apparently.   

(I'm about to drop off, so won't go looking tonight.)

Phil
  

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Re: .22 ss
Reply #12 - Feb 27th, 2017 at 11:47pm
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uscra112 wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 11:14pm:
@BP - I've taken that designation of the .25-20 Central Fire as being meant to distinguish from the already popular .25 Stevens rimfire, but it could just as well be an admission that it wasn't one of their proprietary cartridges.

OTOH, somewhere in my hard drive, however, is a photo of an antique ammunition box clearly labeled .25-20 Stevens.  So at some point they did try to claim it, apparently.  

(I'm about to drop off, so won't go looking tonight.)

Phil

Phil,
Sort of like Remington chambering their #4 barrels for the 25 Stevens Rimfire but then marking the barrels with a 25-10 caliber stamp?    Wink

Got to looking, and the Feb 1890 WRA catalog is the first one where Winchester shows the 25-20 chambering as available publicly for the 1885, and also was the first time they also listed WRA 25-20 ammo as being available, which means they had to have been working on and testing before then.
Someone would have to contact Cody to see what their records show for the earliest WRA 25-20 chambering for either an in-house testing platform, or the earliest customer special order request.
And with Redsetter's info that Stevens hadn't yet listed it as of 1888, it may be narrowing the gap enough to question just which factory was first chamber the 25-20 after Maynard.
  

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Re: .22 ss
Reply #13 - Feb 28th, 2017 at 12:48am
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uscra112 wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 11:14pm:

OTOH, somewhere in my hard drive, however, is a photo of an antique ammunition box clearly labeled .25-20 Stevens.  So at some point they did try to claim it, apparently.Phil


No doubt about that!  That's clearly the implied claim in their catalog description of the cartridge. And after 1890, Maynard (Mass. Arms) could not protest--it was defunct.
  
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Re: .22 ss
Reply #14 - Feb 28th, 2017 at 2:32am
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Redsetter wrote on Feb 28th, 2017 at 12:48am:
uscra112 wrote on Feb 27th, 2017 at 11:14pm:

OTOH, somewhere in my hard drive, however, is a photo of an antique ammunition box clearly labeled .25-20 Stevens.  So at some point they did try to claim it, apparently.Phil


No doubt about that!  That's clearly the implied claim in their catalog description of the cartridge. And after 1890, Maynard (Mass. Arms) could not protest--it was defunct.

Redsetter,
Seem to recall reading somewhere that Stevens may have acquired Mass. Arms assets, but don't recall the timing or the source.
May have been around the time when Dr. Hadley's (of the Maynard 22 RF breech adapter patent fame) adjustable tang sight eyecup design (with the 6 apertures in a small rotatable disc screwed to the inside of the eyecup) became available as an upgrade for the Stevens line of vernier tang sights and was listed as their Combination Eyecup.
If Stevens did acquire those Mass. Arms assets, they may have figured they had obtained some rights (even if tenuous) to catalog some claim to the 25-20 cartridge.
Phil's right, it's late, will look tomorrow.
  

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