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For the Ballard fans (Read 15887 times)

powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	For the Ballard fans Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:20pm	Print Post
	I am wondering if any collectors have encountered something similar. I have a R Ball & Co. Ballard Patent spotting rifle with a globe front sight with what appears to be flowers embossed on the outer circumference of the sight. The inside the front sight is a spade shape with a hole in it. This appears to brass dovetailed lengthwise into the bottom of the globe. John Dutcher’s Ballard book shows a similar sight mounted on pre-Marlin Ballard rifles of various makers, but the photos are not detailed enough for me to tell if they have the features mine does. Any thoughts? This same R Ball & Co. rifle is what I believe to be original nickel plate over a round spot on the left side of the receiver, which is I think, a factory repair of some sort. Any thoughts? Regards, Powderman


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #1 - Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:23pm	Print Post
	Could only attach I pic so here is another.


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #2 - Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:24pm	Print Post
	Could only attach I pic so here is another.


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #3 - Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:25pm	Print Post
	Could only attach I pic so here is another.


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #4 - Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:27pm	Print Post
	Could only attach I pic so here is another.


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16276 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #5 - Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:48pm	Print Post
	I don't see many R Ball Ballard rifles, and have never seen a sight like that on any gun, Ballard or other. Very unusual globe sight! Never seen a pre Marlin Ballard with the round plug in the receiver, and wonder myself what the reason could be for a plug at that spot. I've seen pins near that spot to hook the link on a breech seating tool, but they're a bit higher to line up with the bore. Nickel does look old, so if it's not original, I'd guess it was or was done a long time ago.

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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #6 - Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 9:56pm	Print Post
	The ring of the globe is ridiculously thick; wonder if it was cut from a tube or cylinder of some sort embossed with that floral pattern?


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SgtDog0311 Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 384 Joined: Mar 19^th, 2014	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #7 - Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 10:19pm	Print Post
	Will you look at the rifling at the muzzle. Way cool! Does it look good from the breach?

	Best Regards, John
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16276 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #8 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 12:16am	Print Post
	SgtDog0311 wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2017 at 10:19pm: Will you look at the rifling at the muzzle. Way cool! Does it look good from the breach? Those old pre Marlin Ballard rifles had some big, deep rifling John! Not sure if that equated to accuracy though. Seems most of the old barrels with reputations for extreme accuracy had much narrower lands, and wider grooves.

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Bill Lawrence Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1037 Joined: Mar 17^th, 2014	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #9 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 9:11am	Print Post
	The ring of the globe is ridiculously thick; wonder if it was cut from a tube or cylinder of some sort embossed with that floral pattern? I second this notion. Also, having made globe front sights from cartridge magazine retainer rings, the sight looks to me to be the work of a talented individual rather than a factory. Also, if these earliest Ballard receivers were cast, could the plug be a heatless (factory?) fix to a casting flaw? Bill Lawrence


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57thahc Full Member Offline Posts: 175 Location: Hillsdale Mi. Joined: Dec 29^th, 2007	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #10 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 9:16am	Print Post
	I agree the tube of the sight looks like a decorative tube embossment, the rest of the sight is brass welding and iron pieces. Still it is attached to an early Ballard and looks like someone wanted to personally "add" a bit of them selves to their Ballard. Some things are not all ways "virgin". Vintage SS rifles are 99.9% used ,collector's are looking for that rare "virgin" item. I have a good friend that collects and has an unfired Henry rifle, I certainly believe it is,as he does his homework. Unique item and as he has other guns to shoot,it can set in his safe. I like the special sight, but I am a artist so off beat things are interesting! Dick Stack57thahc

	Turned in my M60 for a Martini!
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16276 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #11 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 9:47am	Print Post
	Bill Lawrence wrote on Feb 24^th, 2017 at 9:11am: [color=#ff0000] Also, if these earliest Ballard receivers were cast, could the plug be a heatless (factory?) fix to a casting flaw? Bill Lawrence Yes Bill, all the pre Marlin Ballard rifles were cast frames. I suppose if the factory was trying to save money by plugging an imperfection, then the best place to use the plugged repair would also be on a receiver that was scheduled to be nickel plated. Any other receiver would likely show the plug with color casehardening.

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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7324 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #12 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 11:10am	Print Post
	My first thought regarding that "plug" is, because of it's location, it's a barrel retaining pin. But, if so, you would think that it would extend to the other side, so that it can be removed w/o drilling it out. Frank

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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16276 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #13 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 12:17pm	Print Post
	frnkeore wrote on Feb 24^th, 2017 at 11:10am: My first thought regarding that "plug" is, because of it's location, it's a barrel retaining pin. But, if so, you would think that it would extend to the other side, so that it can be removed w/o drilling it out. Frank I thought the same thing Frank. But it looks a little low to intersect the barrel threads I think?

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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #14 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm	Print Post
	Enough speculation; to the X-ray dept.


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7324 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #15 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 1:46pm	Print Post
	Redsetter wrote on Feb 24^th, 2017 at 12:33pm: Enough speculation; to the X-ray dept. Yes

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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #16 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 5:13pm	Print Post
	Thanks to all who have replied with their thoughts on my R. Ball Ballard. I also think the round spot on the receiver is to fix a casting flaw which would have been virtually undetectable before oxidation started flaking the nickel plate. I have noticed factory repairs to stocks which I assume were to fix flaws when manufactured. I do not see brass welding on the globe sight. The insert is brass dovetailed into the sight. My rifle has the receiver, breach block, tigger, forend cap, and buttplate , nickel plated. Hammer and trigger guard are case hardened. It has what I think is a heavy weight ,for a pre-Marlin Ballard, barrel that is 30” long and is 1 1/8” at the receiver tapering to 7/8” at the muzzle. The rifling is bright, shiny and sharp from chamber to muzzle. It is chambered for the 46 Extra Long rimfire cartridge, which had a 1.534” long case with a 305 gr bullet and loaded with 57 gr. of black powder. A pipsqueak by todays standards but potent for the day. Select wood in the stock. The rifle weighs 9 1/2 lbs. and has a factory tang sight mounted on the frame behind the breach block. Regards, Powderman
	« Last Edit: Feb 24^th, 2017 at 7:21pm by powderman »

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57thahc Full Member Offline Posts: 175 Location: Hillsdale Mi. Joined: Dec 29^th, 2007	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #17 - Feb 24^th, 2017 at 5:58pm	Print Post
	I stand corrected on the brass welding, a brass dovetail it is. It is an interesting addition,to make the rifle your own. Dick Stack 57thahc

	Turned in my M60 for a Martini!
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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #18 - Feb 26^th, 2017 at 8:57pm	Print Post
	It's a slick way of installing the aperture into the front globe.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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32 ballard xl Full Member Offline Stand on your hind legs, and shoot like a man. Posts: 129 Location: Akwesasne, New York Joined: Feb 20^th, 2011	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #19 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 12:43pm	Print Post
	westerner wrote on Feb 26^th, 2017 at 9:01pm: I'm going to make one. Cannot live without one. Going to engrave the outside too and make the aperture just the same way. Thank you for sharing that. Joe. Good for you, Joe. Can't wait to see the results of your work.

	Ballards are best!
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bnice Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1861 Location: Iowa Joined: Nov 30^th, 2006	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #20 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 4:44pm	Print Post
	maybe a misguided (aligned) attempt


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #21 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 6:36pm	Print Post
	Westerner, I hope you will post a pic if and when you make your globe sight. Here is a pic of the R Ball Ballard. Regards, Powderman


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #22 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 6:51pm	Print Post
	For the amusement of the Ballard fans, here is the R. Ball & Co. Ballard side by side with one made by their successor the Merrimack Arms & Manufacturing Co. Ballard which shows the difference between the two of the frame, lever, hammer, extractor, butt plate. and buttstock. Regards, Powderman


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #23 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 6:52pm	Print Post
	another pic


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #24 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 6:54pm	Print Post
	another


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #25 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 6:54pm	Print Post
	another


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16276 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #26 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 8:54pm	Print Post
	Very nice looking pre Marlin Ballards Powderman!

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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7324 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #27 - Feb 27^th, 2017 at 9:29pm	Print Post
	Does your Merrimack Arms & Manufacturing Co. have a butt stock bolt that goes threw the butt plate? Frank

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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #28 - Feb 28^th, 2017 at 1:43am	Print Post
	frnkeore wrote on Feb 27^th, 2017 at 9:29pm: Does your Merrimack Arms & Manufacturing Co. have a butt stock bolt that goes threw the butt plate? Frank Yes it does. I forgot to get a photo of that. Regards, Powderman


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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #29 - Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 4:39pm	Print Post
	Here's a photo of the Merrimack Ballard butt plate showing the end of the stock bolt. Regards


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7324 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #30 - Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm	Print Post
	Thank you. The reason I was asking is that I have a JM Marlin Ballard #490 with that type butt plate. This is mine. Frank

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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16276 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #31 - Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 8:17pm	Print Post
	frnkeore wrote on Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 7:58pm: Thank you. The reason I was asking is that I have a JM Marlin Ballard #490 with that type butt plate. This is mine. Frank Not unusual to see Brown Ballard parts on very early Marlins Frank, but they are often mixed with Marlin made parts too! Your #490 is about 5 numbers higher than my #4 Perfection and mine doesn't have that Brown buttplate. But mine does have the Brown lever with hole in it, and the pin in the frame that the lever hole fits over. When Marlin took over production after Brown's bankruptcy they also got all the Brown parts, and machinery. They additionally got a number of employees from Brown, so they assembled guns from a mix of old and new parts. Owning an early Marlin Ballard with Brown parts is a very unique gun! When I restored mine I sent it to Dave Casey at Ballard to CCH, and he was pretty excited to see an early Marlin with the Brown lever and pin. This is the Brown reverse loop pinned lever: (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)
	« Last Edit: Mar 2^nd, 2017 at 8:23pm by marlinguy »
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powderman Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 335 Location: British Columbia Joined: Feb 26^th, 2005	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #32 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:18am	Print Post
	That is sure an eye pleasing rifle you got there Marlinguy, and interesting with the mix of Brown and JM parts. How is it chambered? Regards, Powderman


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16276 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: For the Ballard fans Reply #33 - Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 9:28am	Print Post
	powderman wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2017 at 1:18am: That is sure an eye pleasing rifle you got there Marlinguy, and interesting with the mix of Brown and JM parts. How is it chambered? Regards, Powderman It's chambered in .45 Govt. (.45-70) It was a special order #4 that had a heavy half octagon 34" barrel when I bought it. But some Bubba had drilled out the bore and sleeved it with a '03 Springfield barrel rechambered to .30-30! To top it off they used an electric pencil on the barrel flat to mark it, ".30-30 Black Powder"! I bought it about 30 years ago for $200 just to get the barreled action, and then did the restoration back to original look.

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