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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Mystery Schuetzen Rifle? (Read 10916 times)
2coltkid
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Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Feb 23rd, 2017 at 7:37am
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Well, I always wanted an original Kentucky long rifle, but the nice ones I could find were in the $3000 plus range.  I was at an auction last week and spotted this this rifle and it was marked “Schuetzen rifle”
I just loved the way it looked and was able to pick it up for $1000.  Now comes my problem.  I know nothing about this rifle.  My first question is it actually a Schuetzen?  I have found lots of photos on the net, but most all of them have a fancy sights on them, this one has what I would call a standard sight.  The rifle has no markings I can find, a very touchy 2 stage trigger, no ½ cock on the lock, 35 inch barrel. 
The other item I can’t explain is the hexagonal barrel bore?  About .45 on the flats and .50 on the points.  I guess my question is what is this rifle, who made it, when was it made, and do you think I can still shoot it!  I would really appreciate any help!   
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #1 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 10:01am
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It does have features of a fancier match type rifle. What caliber is it? Most used for match shooting were 40 caliber or smaller.  Easier to absorb the light recoil of a smaller bore over the duration of a match.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #2 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 10:50am
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The butt plate and the trigger guard, diffenitly look German/Euro Schuetzen but, the rest of it is a High quality "Plains" type rifle. Maybe built in one of the states that had large German or Swiss population.

It appears to be a round ball barrel, from the rifling style and looks like it could clean up, well enough to shoot well.

Pull the lock and see if there are any markings on the back side and pull the barrel out of the stock and see if there are marking under it, too.

Can we get a picture of the top of the wrist and upper tang? Are there any screw holes in that area?

It's a very well made rifle and I'm supprized that it has no markings but, maybe the underside will.

Frank
  

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JerryW
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #3 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 10:57am
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Like Frank said check for markings. it reminds me of a  Slotter & company rifle I owned. JerryW
  
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Longknife
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #4 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 11:09am
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Colt kid, It appears to be of European make to me, possibly Germany, Austria or Switzerland. The hex. or 6 groove rifling is pretty common in that era. Also the bore may be "funneled" or "coned" to permit easier loading. If you check farther down the bore it may be of a smaller caliber. It does not really fall in to the category of a "Shuetzen'" as it does not have the fine sights , palm rest, raised cheek piece etc. that Shuetzen rifles have so it would not be competitive in Shuetzen matches. It is a fine "hunting" rifle though. Lots of things need to be checked before putting powder down that bore, a good muzzleloading gunsmith need to go over it thoroughly...IMHO...Ed
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #5 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 11:59am
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My, you people do come up with some interesting guns!  Now, to your questions.  Is it a Schuetzen?  Based on what I can see of the sights (and assuming no holes/dovetails for others), I'd call it a hunting-target rifle with Schuetzen tendencies.  When was it made?  Most likely the 1850-1880 period.  Who made it?  Other than a Germanically-trained 'smith and/or one working in a Germanic community, I have no idea, especially since the trigger guard and butt plate were very likely available commercially.  Still, given it's obvious quality, I'm very surprised the rifle isn't signed.  Have you checked inside the lock plate and the butt plate?  What about the hexagonal bore?  While the Whitworth rifle comes immediately to mind, I'll also note that barrel makers have experimented with all kinds of rifling schemes, some good, most not so, almost since the rifling principle was developed.  Have you tried to find out whether the rifling has a twist and if so to measure it?  Last but not least, especially on this forum, can you safely shoot it?  If and only if a qualified gunsmith gives the barrel a clean bill of health, yes.  And you might start out with a patched round ball.  Good luck!

Bill Lawrence
  
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2coltkid
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #6 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 7:57pm
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OK, Thanks for the great info.  In reply to the many questions, I think it is 45cal.  There is a raised cheek piece, it was not clearly visible in the photos. No markings on the lock, I will check the bore after I give it a good cleaning.  I added more pictures.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #7 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 8:53pm
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I've always been into cartridge single shots, but I'd buy that one too at the price range you got it! I think it's pretty nifty!
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #8 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 9:56pm
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It has a German style cheek piece on the butt stock and a very fancy upper tang. Very nice.

Am I seeing that the trigger guard hinges away from the triggers?

Frank
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #9 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 11:13pm
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you might check and see if screws are metric or"english" pattern.   Most builders by that era were using "bought parts"  barrel form here lock from there butt-plates and trigger guards from another source I've seen bonafide ML schuetzens made with Remington barrels and furniture obviously made by some sort of casting firm.  
  It does almost look like the trigger guard hinges and that there is a trigger-plate release lever for cleaning the DST assembly..  
  It has an old world feel but I'd guess made in the upper midwest where there were strong middle class urban German communities with hunting and target shooting traditions.
  

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2coltkid
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #10 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 11:36pm
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Yes, if you remove the thumb screw near the butt stock, the trigger guard hinges forward toward the barrel.  My guess is so you can get at the small screw that adjusts the pull of the second trigger?
  
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Mike Gish
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #11 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 11:47pm
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Did not see a fly on the tumbler, how is that going to work with a set trigger without catching in the half cock notch. Interesting rifle for sure.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #12 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 11:57pm
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Doesn't need a fly, that is full cock
  

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Schutzenbob
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #13 - Feb 24th, 2017 at 12:27am
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coltkid, that's a very nice rifle! I don't think it's particularly mysterious, it's very close to many other American muzzle-loading schuetzen rifles of that time, late 1840's into the 1870's. Your rifle is in very nice condition, if it was used, it wasn't used much. I'm surprised that it doesn't have some sort of a rear peep sight, and just in front of the trigger there's a punch mark that may have been for locating a palm rest. Take good care of your new rifle.  Wink
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2017 at 2:14pm by Schutzenbob »  
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sharps4590
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Re: Mystery Schuetzen Rifle?
Reply #14 - Feb 24th, 2017 at 8:25am
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Palm rests were not used or allowed in the early German Schuetzen matches nor do I believe they were ever allowed.  The cheek rest is definitely Tyrolean and not all Schuetzen rifles have the "dinner plate" cheek rest.  My Original Haenel/Aydt doesn't nor do many pictured in the "Alte Schienebwaffen" series.  The quality is self evident.  The Tyrolean rest and lack of a palm rest make me lean toward German or perhaps Austrian make.  However, the absence of an aperture sight or the means to mount one sort of makes me wonder about that.  As one poster alluded to there was several different kinds of matches held in Germany at that time, not just the Schuetzen kind most of us think of first.  It could very well be that it was made as sort of a dual purpose rifle.  

Unless you are fortunate enough to find a signature or name or other identifying mark it's likely no one will ever know who made it or where.  That is not an uncommon circumstance when it comes to old German firearms.

As far as shooting it.  Who can tell from internet pictures?  If it's checked by a qualified smith and he gives it a clean bill of health I don't see why you shouldn't shoot it.  Being a traditional muzzleloader kind of guy the first projectile that comes to my mind is a patched round ball of correct diameter and proper thickness of patch.  Seems that would at least work easily in the hexagonal bore.  Someone mentioned the Whitworth style of bullet and depending on the twist I think that bears serious investigation.  Back then there was so much experimenting going on with rifling, here and abroad, I'm never surprised at what I see.  Truly a lovely rifle.  Congrats.

Just had a thought, thus the edit.  You and someone else mentioned the trigger guard swinging down when the....bolt....was removed.  Is there a lever or other means by which the entire trigger group can be easily removed?  If so, check if the set trigger is two lever or 4 lever.  I'm not certain when the 4 lever triggers arrived on the scene but if the trigger group is 4 lever I believe that would point more towards actually being made in Germany.  Not positive, just a gut feeling.
  
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