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Old-Win
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Alloy and Bullet Shape
Feb 21st, 2017 at 9:34am
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Borrowing from RSW's post, I have a Stevens - Pope barrel with a bullet that looks and fits just like the one shown on the right.  Everything I've heard and read says that smokeless powder doesn't bump the bullet up that well.  Can we assume that smokeless will bump up that bullet so that the first 3 driving bands fill up the bore.  Should a shooter with that tapered bullet shoot using a softer alloy like 30-1 or even 40-1 since there isn't much of a nose that can upset?

"I hope those reading this thread will find this germane to the topic. Photo below is of a test I ran to examine the fins of a breech seated bullet vs one that was muzzle loaded. The breech seated bullet was .001 inch over groove diameter of barrel in which it was seated. The muzzle loaded bullet was a little more than .001 over groove diameter. Both bullets were lubed, I removed the lube after the test to better show the effects on the bullet bodies.
The breech seated bullet was cast 1:20 in a base pour Steve Brooks mould and went into a Ron Smith 32 cal, gain twist barrel. It was breech seated with a Weber seater, then pushed approx. 6 inches ahead of the chamber with a rod, then gently pushed back out the breech.
The muzzle loaded bullet was cast 1:30 in a nose pour Pope mould and shoved with a bullet starter through a Stevens-Pope false muzzle held in a vice and caught on a pad to prevent bullet damage."

  
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RSW
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Re: Alloy and Bullet Shape
Reply #1 - Feb 21st, 2017 at 10:36am
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Old-Win
With Pope rifling, it does not matter if the bullet bumps up as long as the rear two or three bands are groove diameter or a bit over. The forward bearing bands are at bore diameter or slightly over. Below is the illustration from Pope's 1899 catalog showing how his rifling supports the bore riding part of the bullet at 16 points, rather than the 6 or 8 points as would be the case with conventional rifling. As you can see from the illustration, the bullet rides on the tops of the lands and bottoms of the grooves. Look closely at the bullet on the right and you can see where the front bearing band was kissed by a rifling land.
In my experience, tapered bullets fired with smokeless loads do not bump up to fill the grooves, based recovered bullets.
Pope recommended in his catalog, 1:30 (tin:lead) but bear in mind that was for muzzle loading. With smokeless, I would not be surprised if your rifle shoots best with breech seated bullets of 1:20. What muzzle loading brings to the party is that it allows shooting dirty with duplex loads, which is irrelevant when shooting smokeless.
Does this come anywhere near answering your question?
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Alloy and Bullet Shape
Reply #2 - Feb 21st, 2017 at 12:58pm
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I agree with Randy;s analysis of bore riding. 

I have 1000's of rounds through my Stevens-Pope.  I have found that a bullet that is small enough to muzzle load is not big enough to shoot at top performance with smokeless.  The Hoch mold Dave Farmer made based on my bore slug is at least .004" bigger at the base than the Schoyen mold that came with the rifle. I doubt if the Hoch bullet could be driven down from the muzzle. 

My rifle shows a slight preference for 20:1 over 30:1.
  

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Old-Win
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Re: Alloy and Bullet Shape
Reply #3 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 7:29pm
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Thanks Randy,
I see now that the front driving band is at bore or slightly over to keep the front of the bullet aligned.  My front driving band is smaller.  Wonder if that would make a difference?
Bob
  
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SgtDog0311
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Re: Alloy and Bullet Shape
Reply #4 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:35pm
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just to share my experience - when fire forming with smokeless I've had poor luck, especially fire forming .405s for my 40-63.  The base near the web takes several iterations with smokeless whereas BP fills the chamber with one firing.  That tells me the kick provided by smokeless is weak compared to BP.    If I were trying to get some bump-up I'd use a fast powder like Unique but fireforming it still does not compare and may not for bumping up an alloy either.
  

Best Regards,
John
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RSW
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Re: Alloy and Bullet Shape
Reply #5 - Feb 22nd, 2017 at 8:40pm
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Bob
How well does your bullet shoot? That's the bottom line.
Is your bullet mould original to the rifle by any chance and does the barrel have a false muzzle? 
If it has a false muzzle, are you shooting muzzle loaded or breech seated?
I assume your bullet is tapered. Is the second bearing band bore diameter or slightly over? How about the third band . . . etc
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Old-Win
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Re: Alloy and Bullet Shape
Reply #6 - Feb 23rd, 2017 at 6:49pm
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My ability at this sport is limited so I don't qualify as to whether that bullet can shoot or not.  The rifle is missing it's false muzzle and it's a bullet from an Accurate mold with dimensions given to me by a forum member that owns several Pope molds.  Front driving band is .314"
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Alloy and Bullet Shape
Reply #7 - Feb 24th, 2017 at 12:01am
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You need to slug it to find the optimun size for the mold bands.  Pope bullet may be too small, especially ML bullets.
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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