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Joe Do...
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What in the world is it?
Jan 26th, 2017 at 8:37pm
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This original photo is an 8x10 and is dated "JAN 28 1924 on its backside.  

Also on the back of the photo is a typed note, "Three Washington Riflemen stand an excellent chance of taking the Olympic Rifle team.  Left to right Walter Stokes, World Champion in 1921 & 22 Sergt Morris Fisher U.S.M.C., Present Free Rifle Champion of the World who will defend his title and Lawrence Nuessle in Present Offhand Champion of the world.   ----National photo"

The rifleman on the left is holding some sort of custom Ballard rifle.  I'd swear I've seen this work before especially the palm rest extension on the forearm.

Even more "cool" is the custom Springfield rifle of the rifleman on the right.  It has a custom schuetzen triggerguard and it looks like a Winchester schuetzen palm rest.

The photo quality is not as sharp as I had hoped it would be but its still a fun photo.

... Joe
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #1 - Jan 26th, 2017 at 8:50pm
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Interesting that Nuessle's rifle has both the Swiss lever-styled guard with the enlarged forward palm rest loop for the "closed up" offhand position as well as the American style Tuning-fork palm rest forward for a more "open" hand-forward offhand grip for the open-style used in military offhand shooting.

  Both the other rifle seem to me to have the wooden block type palm or fingertip rest just ahead of the trigger guard. and they are equipped with military-type slings.   Nuessle's rifle has the sling swivels but the sling itself is not visible.  The Ballard has padding wrapped around the forend as if front sling and swivel are used as a front "grip-stop" as seen on later position-rifles.    I don't know what to make of the wad of padding on the middle rifle Huh
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One assumes that the same rifle had to be used at all three shooting positions and that a "traditional" palm rest would be an inconvenience in anything but the offhand shooting

edited: damn ought-to correct
« Last Edit: Jan 27th, 2017 at 8:00am by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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waterman
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #2 - Jan 26th, 2017 at 9:31pm
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The guy on the right is Lawrence Nuesslein, the same guy who owned & shot the Olympic-type rifle in our other "free rifle" photo.

E. C. "Ned" Crossman, in "The Book of the Springfield" (1930) and in "Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting" (1932) explains in some detail how those guys turned 1903 Springfields fitted with heavy barrels into sorta-competitive free rifles.  There were "speed locks" designed by a couple of guys, including John Garand.  These had headless cocking pieces, heavy duty springs and light weight one-piece firing pins.  There were two options (at least) for set triggers, a couple of Schuetzen-style trigger guard supplements, adjustable hooked buttplates, palm rests, hand stops for prone and adjustable combs or cheek-pieces.  Do any of these rifles exist?
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #3 - Jan 26th, 2017 at 11:08pm
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Waterman, yes, they have survived in a few instances- like the Springfield and Marine Corp museums. The bookThe Springield 1903 Rifles by Lt. Col. Wm. S. Brophy has photos of quite a few, along with photographs of Fisher, Stokes, and Crossman. Stokes used Western ammunition in his rifle it says. There is a lot of variation in the rifles pictured, having been tailored to each individual. 
By the way, I own a group of old National Rifleman magazines that were owned by Crossman, with his mailing labels still upon the covers. His daughter gave 'em to me when I was just a kid. She was my aunt's neighbor.
  
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waterman
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #4 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 12:58pm
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In "Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting", Crossman quotes from Lawrence Nuesslein's letter.  "At the free rifle matches at Perry in 1922 I shot one of the Remington outfits.  This had a model 1922 standard stock.  I used my own palm rest on this rifle which was of the hinged type (palm rest was hinged and was mounted on the front end of the magazine floor plate."

What sort of Remington is Lawrence Nuesslein writing about?  This is about the time that Remington made the experimental batch of small bore Martinis.  If they used a 1922 stock (designed for the then-new 1922 Springfield training rifle), was it on a Remington-made 1917 action?
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #5 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 3:48pm
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waterman wrote on Jan 26th, 2017 at 9:31pm:
E. C. "Ned" Crossman, in "The Book of the Springfield" (1930) and in "Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting" (1932) explains in some detail how those guys turned 1903 Springfields fitted with heavy barrels into sorta-competitive free rifles... 


If Nuesslein used the '03 he's holding to win his Offhand Championship, it must have been a little better than "sorta-competitive"! However, Crossman noted that even with these '03 modifications, US teams fared so badly against the Europeans in various Free Rifle matches that in '27, Martinis were purchased for use by American teams. 
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #6 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 3:50pm
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My guess, and that's all it is, he was either shooting a version of the M22 stock fitted to a M17, or a Remington-barreled version of the Springfield. Although Brophy looks fairly well into the target rifle, his book is real light on anything that isn't an '03. He shows some of the other stuff- Martinis, other single shots that got used, it's pretty much what the title says. 
Our man, Neusslien, is only mentioned in a reference to the various set trigger setups these things sported. To that, the Marines used different than the Army, and some even came up with their own designs. Very individualized rifles, even on the same team.
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #7 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 3:57pm
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I had meant to thank Joe for this picture. I like the way it ties the transition of the two eras of American target shooting. I grew up with a father who figured that the '03 was the epitome of target shooting. He was military, and a shooter- mostly of shotguns. So, I went through a stage where those were the rifles I had to own and shoot. Along comes a Model 70..................................
So, thanks Joe Smiley
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #8 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 7:09pm
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This is an interesting era.  I opened Brophy's "Springfield 1903 Rifles" to the part about target rifles.  Very rapid evolution (meaning the other guys won) is shown in photos, etc.  Brophy shows 03s fitted with a number of different match barrels, dimensions & lengths as well as makers.  One photo of a barrel marked Remington on an 03.

On p.109, there is a small photo of the rifles of 3 men trying for a place on the 1922 US Team.  One of the rifles is a High Wall "Winchester-Pope", DST in .30-30.  Schuetzen configuration, except for jacketed bullets.

The .30-06 match loads for Olympic and ISU shooting at 300 meters were not "full power" loads.  They shot bullets of 170 or 180 grains at muzzle velocities in the 2200 to 2300 fps range.  A High Wall .30-30 with a Pope barrel ought to have been competitive.

40 shots a day in competition from any position with a rifle weighing 16 to 20 lb is a pretty good workout.
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #9 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 8:06pm
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Interesting that in the machine-rest test of barrels from many makers, including Pope, the Remingtons scored highest.  But none shot better than about 1 MOA, using Gov't Match ammo.
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #10 - Jan 27th, 2017 at 9:45pm
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I moa is pretty decent by most folks ideas. I think that the matter was more the ammunition of the time than the barrels, at least the best barrels. Bullets of the time were different material and shapes than now, and perhaps powder/primer caused variables added its effect. And then there's the matter of case uniformity......................... we could do this for days..
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #11 - Jan 28th, 2017 at 1:56am
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Bullets were the key.  The ISU & Olympic shooting was not any sort of "stand alone" effort.  WW1 taught the US military that the 150 grain 1906 load was out-ranged by the German, French & even British bullets.  Investigation into improved accuracy began in 1917, with Hatcher & Crossman in the middle of the research.  By 1919, they had seriously begun to study both bullet behavior at long range and the accuracy potential of jacketed bullets.

About 1919, the Army bought something like 100,000 Swiss 7.5 mm bullets.  They served as models for our 172 grain boattails, in final form about 1929.  The same guys doing some of the ISU shooting were at Daytona doing long range shooting, mostly with machine guns, throughout the early & mid-1920s.  At the same time, they were also working on both bullet and load development.   

The ISU matches were the proving ground for the most promising bullets & loads.

  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #12 - Jan 28th, 2017 at 8:55am
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Sgt. Morris Fisher USMC enlisted in the United States Marine Corps and later competed while on duty. He won the Gold medals   
1920 Antwerp      300 m free rifle,three positions
1920 Antwerp      Team free rifle
1920 Antwerp      Team 300 m military rifle, prone
1924 Paris      600 metre free rifle      1924 Paris      Team free rifle Besides his Olympic medals, Fisher won six world titles and held five world records. In 1916 he was awarded the distinguished marksman badge. He is in the Marine Corps Hall of Fame.
  

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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #13 - Jan 28th, 2017 at 8:58am
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More on Sgt. Major Fisher.    (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Fisher and his wife lost their son William after he comissioned in the Marines, where he died in combat at Okinawa in 1945. 
Semper Fi
« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2017 at 9:07am by Kurt_701 »  

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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #14 - Jan 28th, 2017 at 9:30am
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Very Interesting  that is a impressive chestful of medals. In the second picture it looks to me like he is holding one of the Hammereli Martini actioned rifles. With the exception of the added palm rest, it looks very much like mine; though I'd assume its been re-barreled from 7.5 swiss to the '06 cartridge.


I'm really enjoying these discussions of that 'tween "the wars" era of ISU shooting when "improved" single shots had their last hurrah.
  

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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #15 - Jan 28th, 2017 at 9:52am
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Jan 28th, 2017 at 9:30am:
In the second picture it looks to me like he is holding one of the Hammereli Martini actioned rifles...


After reading Crossman's analysis of the significant difference lock-time makes in bullet dispersion at 300 m., I understand why he had to abandon his '03 for a Martini.  (Crossman himself disliked them, though acknowledging their superiority in offhand competition.)   
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #16 - Jan 28th, 2017 at 10:39am
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Lock-time and triggers was I think the main reason the US team bought the Martini actions  and of course the '06 cartridge improvement of the original '03 was heavily influenced by the 7.5 Swiss as well.


there is a Swiss Arms internet forum the deals with all sorts of Swiss stuff,  Its mostly pistols, militaria, and more modern stuff.   But they do have discussions on the single-shots and ISU competition.
  

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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #17 - Feb 6th, 2017 at 8:54pm
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Sgt Morris Fisher USMC
  

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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #18 - Feb 6th, 2017 at 10:31pm
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Here's another pic;
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #19 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 4:25pm
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Sure, why not?

See no harm, Do no harm, right?

More than that, I'd sure love to have the trophy, or at least know where it is, so I could see it in person and drool!!!

Frank
  

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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #20 - Feb 13th, 2017 at 7:16pm
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While it is not the early 1900's it is ashamed there are people out there that are trying to take any and all guns away from us. Never mind the innovations and competition that was held by individuals and even nations in the firearms industry both public and private. Would love to go back in time and visit one of those matches.


JMH
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #21 - Feb 14th, 2017 at 12:20am
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jhm wrote on Feb 13th, 2017 at 7:16pm:
While it is not the early 1900's it is ashamed there are people out there that are trying to take any and all guns away from us. Never mind the innovations and competition that was held by individuals and even nations in the firearms industry both public and private. Would love to go back in time and visit one of those matches.


JMH


Yes, I'd love to go back to the times when competitive shooters were the rock stars of the world! Those times when shooting events were covered by every newspaper in the world, and shooters were welcomed as super stars wherever they went! And talk about big salaries for athletes? Some of the top shooters were winning $1,000 matches in the late 1800's!
  

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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #22 - Feb 14th, 2017 at 2:05am
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That $1000 was 50 oz of gold. Todays gold price (2/13/17) is $1225 oz.

So, that $1000 is in todays dallors $61,250. A pretty good pay day for a weekends work Smiley

I would guess that trophy has plenty of gold and silver, too.

Frank
  

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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #23 - Feb 14th, 2017 at 11:26am
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frnkeore wrote on Feb 14th, 2017 at 2:05am:

I would guess that trophy has plenty of gold and silver, too.

Frank


Which is why it probably met the sorrowful fate of going to a smelter--the ultimate destination of many such magnificent trophies; like the Palma trophy.  Had it been made of pewter, it might survive.
  
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Re: What in the world is it?
Reply #24 - Feb 14th, 2017 at 6:06pm
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One of our club members brought in a gorgeous shooting cup trophy a number of years ago. It was from a match in the 1880's in Hawaii of all places. Did some research of shooting clubs and the name of the winner on the trophy, and he was governor of Hawaii at that time period! 
The trophy had two very neat 1874 Sharps rifles crossed on it, and they were schuetzen style with hooked buttplates. I lusted for it pretty hard, but he wouldn't sell it. A few year later I heard he got a huge offer for it and let it go after all.
  

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