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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Olympic Museum, Lausanne (Read 13275 times)
DrDirt
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Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Jan 24th, 2017 at 10:55am
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The attached photo is the "Gun belonging to Lawrence Nuesslein (USA), two-time Olympic shooting champion, Antwerp 1920."

I wasn't allowed to see what was in the attached cloth bag.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #1 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 11:15am
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WOW

What a find and such a beautiful rifle.

Frank
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #2 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 11:46am
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Anyone know what sight that thing has on it? My kinda rifle, thanks for showing us this one. Smiley
  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #3 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 11:53am
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Rear sight is a BSA # 8.
Cheers,
Laurie
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #4 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 12:53pm
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Thank you. I know so little about some things- like BSA sights. Good to have my body of tutors here for questions like that one. You guys are tops. 
I think the bag is for jelly beans to eat while waiting for the others  to finish shooting.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #5 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 3:52pm
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Pretty darn cool rifle!
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #6 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 6:02pm
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Here's a close-up of a BSA #8 mounted on a BSA adapter plate to suit a Highwall. This one was fitted to a .38/56. The yellow glass element on the eye piece really sharpens the sight picture.

That's a great Highwall in the museum. What cartridge was it chambered for?
Pete
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #7 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 7:23pm
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I'm curious about the chromed arm attached (at least I think it is but with my eyes now ????) to the pistol grip cap. Huh Huh Huh


{edited:  AAAARRRGH   I hate ought-to-correct}
« Last Edit: Jan 25th, 2017 at 7:29am by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #8 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 8:46pm
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 7:23pm:
I'm serious about the chromed arm attached (at least I think it is but with my eyes now ????) to the pistol grip cap. Huh Huh Huh


Maybe curious too? I am also!
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #9 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 8:49pm
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I think it might be the display mounting, look in the background.
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #10 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 9:00pm
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If it isn't for mounting the display, it's just gotta be one of the now-outlawed bellybutton rests in its folded position. Rare accessory sold by Harry Pope in his later years.
  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #11 - Jan 24th, 2017 at 11:23pm
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That is too cool! I would love to know what's in the bag  Smiley
Scott
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #12 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 1:43am
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watchthewind wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 11:23pm:
That is too cool! I would love to know what's in the bag  Smiley
Scott


Maybe the gold that he won Smiley

Frank
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #13 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 2:17am
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First I'll beg forgiveness.  I've been reading "The Book of the Springfield" by E.C. Crossman, dated 1930.  He wrote about 300-meter Olympic-type shooting right after WW1.  He mentioned that the 03's were not competitive and that Winchester furnished some rifles for the US team.  In terms of 300-meter competitiveness, those could only be High Walls.  Crossman implied that the High Walls were .30-06.

I looked for the part on the left wall that would make the HW able to eject rimless cases but did not see it.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #14 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 7:48am
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The when they went with the Springfield arsenal rebarrelled and rechambered Hammereli-Martini striker actions. 
  Fascinating period that is largely overlooked in our single shot "schuetzen" and "Buffalo hunter" dominated orientation.  I'm guessing it was a bit too narrow focussed with only a small group of active shooters made up of military teams and an even smaller group of civilians.  300 meter only matches were just too specialized for mass appeal.


Re the "belly-button rest""  After looking at it a whole lot more, and trying to make sense of the rather confusing exhibit technique; I've concluded that it is a museum fixture to support and stabilize a rifle with a pronged buttplate in a vertical position with the flat side oriented to the glass.   I'm speculating that there is a plug on the bottom that engages the sockets visible in the exhibit case floor and that it is attached to the grip-cap area with one of the museum archival-quality adhesive pads that will leave no residue when removed properly.  By supporting the arm with the fixtures the longer lower butt-plate prong and some sort of barrel or forend support the rifle can be exhibited solidly and securely. 
  Having been a museum-director in my past life I know the exhibiting in a vertical format exhibit case can be a real difficult PITA to do. {I wish I had access to that system when I was designing exhibits
 While distracting as it appear in the photo it appears to be a very good solution and if other long guns in the exhibit use the same technique it would not be as distracting as it is when isolated in a close up photo. 

No idea what's in the bag, maybe added sight accessories?
but since its in Switzerland I'd hazard it's chocolates rather than jelly-beans  Grin
« Last Edit: Jan 25th, 2017 at 7:57am by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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DrDirt
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #15 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 11:18am
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I should have stated it in the original post, but the rifle appeared to be chambered for something in the .22 to .25 range.  The barrel diameter was about 1.25".

Spud wrote on Jan 24th, 2017 at 6:02pm:
Here's a close-up of a BSA #8 mounted on a BSA adapter plate to suit a Highwall. This one was fitted to a .38/56. The yellow glass element on the eye piece really sharpens the sight picture.

That's a great Highwall in the museum. What cartridge was it chambered for?
Pete

  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #16 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 12:45pm
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Crossman (same book) wrote of the 1913 ISU matches at Camp Perry.  "We had nothing in this country remotely resembling a Free Rifle and our Springfields were hopelessly outclassed except in accuracy (meaning no set triggers & hooked butt plates & palm rests).  Winchester ... stepped in with a heavy single shot Winchester with single set trigger and specially bushed and hammer-locked action to handle our 1906 cartridge."

P. 140, Crossman reports of Nuesslein's 1924 rifle, a Martini with a 30" Pope barrel in .30-06.  With sights & palm rest, it weighed 18 1/2 lbs.

Did the rules specify military cartridges?  They did not use the full-power military loads in later years.  The "International Match" load in today's equivalent was something like 36.5 grains of HiVel 2 and a 172 grain bullet.
  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #17 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 4:21pm
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I had a Pope Highwall in 7.5 Swiss in full free rifle stock.  It is now in Iowa.  The story when I bought it was that it was intended for Olympic competition in the 1930s.
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #18 - Jan 25th, 2017 at 10:07pm
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My friend George has one of the Swiss Martini (Hammerli?) actions barreled by Springfield, 30" heavy barrel, with DST & free rifle stock, fancy sights, palm rest, etc. in .30-06.  This one was apparently sold by DCM circa 1932 for about $280.  6 month's wages or groceries for a year for a factory worker.

George & I have shot it a bit, using Sharpe's version of the International Match load; 38 grains 3031 and a Sierra match bullet.  Quite accurate.  We quit shooting it because it is horrendously heavy. 16 lbs +.  Those Olympic free rifle shooters must have been all round athletes, not just guys who were good shots.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #19 - Jan 26th, 2017 at 8:18am
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I have two of the ISU-type Hammereli Martini versions, my first one is in original 7.5x55 swiss. Its very accurate and I have fired modern smokeless jacketed Swiss ammo in it----just never got around to developing cast bullet loads ---yet!!  LONG and HEAVY ended!!! Shocked Shocked
    Not sure what the 300m ISU course of fire was; but after a session of offhand, shooting from sitting or kneeling and then prone might be a natural and welcome progression.

The second one is almost identical rifle with minor stock differences BUT it was converted to 22 rf by drilling out the bore to half an inch or more and a large diameter 22rf barrel liner inserted and the extractor converted to 22rf.   The shorter (20 or so inches long)inner 22 barrel is held in center by three small set screws that have metric threads (which leads me to conclude that the conversion is probably of Euro-origin). It is MUCH easier to shoot Smiley
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #20 - Jan 26th, 2017 at 1:48pm
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This is a fascinating thread.  I wish the picture showed a bit more of the hammer.  I dug out Crossman's "Military and Sporting Rifle Shooting", 1932, which was hiding on my bookshelves but which I had never before opened.  Chapter 12 is about Free Rifle shooting in some detail.

Ned describes the free rifles made in 1913 by Winchester in more detail.  Specifically, he says "single set trigger" and a hammer with a slot, constructed so that gas from a pierced primer could not blow the hammer back.  The photo has DST, so that is probably not a 1913 rifle, unless the triggers were changed.

The 1913 ISU rules forbid any sort of peep sights.  The matches were shot with open sights, either the military target sights for the 03 & Krag or those odd barrel sights we see on European Schuetzen rifles.  Were our military sights modified to eliminate the little hole?  The 1914-1918 war ended ISU & Olympic shooting.  When Olympic shooting resumed in 1920, peep sights & tang sights were allowed, but it was iron sights only, no glass magnifying inserts.

The rifle in the photo could be a 1920 or earlier High Wall in .25 caliber.  What match-grade bullets were available?  What case?  The .25 Krag was a wildcat but pretty well known.  Who made the barrel?

Crossman lists the US team rifles year by year, 1920 to 1930.  He says the 1920 US Olympic team used regular 1903 rifles selected for accuracy.  The museum photo implies that other rifles were used and that Crossman was in error.  Crossman's list does not match what he wrote about Free Rifle shooting in "The Book of the Springfield", so none of this is the gospel.
  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #21 - Jan 26th, 2017 at 2:21pm
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On p. 260 of Crossman's Military & Sporting Rifle Shooting, he quotes from a letter from Nuesslein, saying "my practice rifle is a .22 Schuetzen, on a Winchester action with a heavy #4 octagon Peterson barrel".  Nuesslein went on to write that he used a Peterson palm rest and did much more shooting with the .22 at a reduced target at 50 yards than he did at 300.  Perhaps the photo is Nuesslein's practice rifle?

More about the free rifle game.  The target (Olympics, ISU or Pan-American) was a 1-meter wide circle, with the 1 ring on the outside.  The inner rings were each 100 mm less in width, with the 10 ring being 100 mm wide.  Range was 300 meters (328 yards).  Course of fire was 40 shots offhand, 40 shots kneeling and 40 shots prone.  5 shooters on a team.  Maximum team score is 6000 points.  Winning team score was 4900, by the Swiss team, apparently only achieved once.

  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #22 - Jan 26th, 2017 at 7:17pm
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to Questionablemaynard,  rereading this thread came upon your comment regarding exhibiting rifles vertically.  Today was on the Milwaukee Museum website looking for the Centennial muzzleloading Meunier schuetzen rifle.  The rifle is featured in their exhibit overview and the rifle is displayed vertically with a similar support.  The display does allow for 360 viewing.  I was fortunate to see this rifle displayed (vertically) in SanAntonio in 1968 at the "Hemisphere" but later when visiting Milwaukee the rifle had been withdrawn and in storage.  Sorry to get the thread off topic- jim
  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #23 - May 14th, 2017 at 7:46am
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Two museums in this country that likely have similar rifles would be the Cody in Cody, WY and the Davis in Claremore, OK. Many (100+?) single-shot target rifles on display at any one time and many more in storage. Hope the Cody has started doing a better job of maintaining as they had many rifles starting to rust that are on display during my most recent visit. Both are worth the trip.
  

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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #24 - May 14th, 2017 at 5:55pm
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To Waterman, The Palm rest shown on that Rifle appears to be a Pope. Or at least Identical. Might have something to do with the Barrel source. I own at this time one of the Hammerli Team rifles in 30-06, Now I may be wrong about it being a Team Rifle as after 1930 I have read the NRA was able arrange purchase of Hammerli Rifles to those who wished to buy them and mine has Scroll engraving around the edge of the action profile, it also has a rear sight much like the one used on the Team Rifles but with Metric Screw adjustments.
I have at one time owned one of the Winchester Hiwalls used in 
I think 1913 in 30-06 Caliber at Camp Perry. I lettered it and it lettered as  Rifle that first left the Factory in 50 Express caliber and was returned a few years later for change. It then left the Factory in 30-06 with the Front Sight with the Top opened up as described in the description of those Rifles. It was very accurate with Military Match Ammo. But it was a Hard Holder.
You had to have a good solid grip and hard pull into your shoulder, shot it both Offhand and Prone, at 200 YDS Prone it just took out the X Ring on the NRA A-21 200 -YD SMALLBORE 
RIFLE TARGET. But it was rather an unpleasant Rifle to shoot and I sold it. A mistake I have come to believe. I suspect that when the 30-06 Hi Walls  were being built in the custom shop at Winchester the Lower Tang with Close Coupled set Trigger was appropriated for use in the Rifles for Camp Perry. HTH 
Regards FITZ-G. Smiley
  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #25 - May 15th, 2017 at 1:15am
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Back in the late 60's after I got out of the navy I wrote to the NRA regarding reduced loads for 100 yd shooting. The gist of the letter was that to use IMR 4895 powder 38-40 grains maximum and a Sierra 125 grain spitzer flat based bullet. At the time I had a Smith Corona fitted with a lyman 48 rear sight and a 17 xnb which meant taking off the standard 03 sight off and installing the 17xnb. That load useing tw44 cases shot extremely well and the letter did mention 300 meter shooting. Wishing I had that letter today. Very low recoil and very accurate. Frank
  
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Re: Olympic Museum, Lausanne
Reply #26 - May 15th, 2017 at 11:45am
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on a related note I know a man who shot on our 1968 biatholon team. he told me they used Remington 40x's in .223 converted for clip feed.
  
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