Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BPCR Shooting Dirty (Read 19121 times)
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1307
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #30 - Jan 6th, 2017 at 1:53pm
Print Post  
Chris
The rifle was described as a Winchester with several custom features, one of which was; double set triggers with the front trigger being very small in diameter and of a light let-off. The barrel was described as full octagon with matting on top three flats, no maker specified. In the equipment list for that match, his rifle was listed only as being Winchester. Some other rifles were listed with barrel maker such as Pope, Zischang, etc. so I assume (but don't know) Strecker's was factory. 
After posting the above paragraph of my response, I was looking for a photo of Strecker and found one from 1901 clearly showing the muzzle of Strecker's rifle and the 5 holes in it are a dead giveaway that his Winchester was a muzzle loader. NOW, I do not know if that is the same barrel that was on that rifle in 1895 though as he was shooting fixed ammo at the match in '95. I'm fairly sure it is the same rifle, as he used that Winchester throughout the remainder of his shooting career from the time he acquired it. (IMU, that rifle is still in the possession of the Strecker family)
« Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2017 at 2:52pm by RSW »  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #31 - Jan 7th, 2017 at 8:53am
Print Post  
A lot of this will depend on where you are shooting what works in Michigan may not work in Phoenix. I used to shoot straight black it a 38-55 using Javalina Schuetzen lube that I added two tablespoons of Lanolin per pound. It was pretty loose but it kept the fouling very soft. I won a few matches with that load. I was shooting in Western NY at the time.

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #32 - Jan 7th, 2017 at 10:01am
Print Post  
While in the following comments, the arms in question are different I think the  fouling issue is the same.  
  In the Revolutionary war period, Patrick Ferguson developed a 'breech-loading" single-shot flintlock using a fast-twist trigger-guard mounted vertical breech plug.   He demonstrated it extensively to the British military establishment.  Said demos included very long strings of fire without failures---including some in a rainstorm.  
While the military  was amazed they failed to adopt it on a wide basis.  A company of light infantry was raised experimentally, and equipped as scout-snipers but upon arrival they were never issued their single-shot breech-loading flintlocks and the unit was dispersed as replacements to other LI companies.    I have read extensively on this and have never determined whether it was simply "establishment intransigence" or whether Ferguson realized the environmental conditions mitigated against the rifles use.  Ferguson was later killed at Kings Mountain where he was leading the Tory insurgency forces.

In the late 1950's and 60's an old friend of mine Matt Switlick of Monroe MI recreated one of those rifles and used it to put on public exhibitions.  I shot it a number of times.   It did bore foul though the tight fitting ball being breech-loaded tended to keep the bore clear until it got too hot and dried the fouling between shots.
It's criticall problem was with the powder-fouling developing on the breech-plug screw and disabling the rifle; unless used as a standard muzzle loader using balls with more windage.

Matt's conclusion was that the MUCH lower humidity in the colonies permitted the fouling to build up and dry out putting the mechanism out of action.    Back in England, especially during the "rainstorm trials",  the relative humidity kept the fouling wet and soft. Some Ferguson rifles were later sent to India; under private purchase, by the East India Company's militia.  There,  they apparently worked well in high humidity ares.   Evidence indicates that a "special lubricant" was later developed to keep the Breech threads functioning in heavy combat situations. 

I would suspect that their descendant Black Powder cartridge rifles worked well in the higher relative humidity coastal conditions----especially if "blow tubes" or even if just blowing down the bore, was permitted.     I think the key to the long firing strings with BP was the ambient humidity at the event venues.
« Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:41am by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2622
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #33 - Jan 7th, 2017 at 11:05am
Print Post  
You guys are 100% correct about humidity of course.  I live on the wet coast of Canada and it's generally cool and humid.  The matches I attend are all in hot dry places in America where things are much different.

When shooting my schuetzen rifles with a single case at my home range, I scrape the powder residue into a paper cup.  On humid summer days the residue pulls so much moisture from the air that it becomes a gooey liquid with viscosity like 90 wt gear oil.  On dry days it's more like sand.

That would obviously have a huge effect.  I think the various powders have different fouling characteristics too.  The newer Goex Olde Eynsford 1.5 has less fouling for me ( in most of my loads, not all?!) than Swiss 1.5.

Bullet and chamber design would have an effect too.  If I do not wipe between shots I generally can't chamber a round after 1 or 2 shots.  This is because my bullets are a tight fit in the chamber and also are seated to engrave the rifling.   The other day I was shooting an old 1886 Winchester in .38-56 and it was no problem to shoot 11 shots in a row without fouling control.  I have no idea what the chamber looks like, but I expect that there is some slop and freebore so the fouling has a place to go Smiley.   This rifle certainly wouldn't win a schuetzen match though, even with a talented off hand shooter instead of just me.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7732
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #34 - Jan 7th, 2017 at 5:53pm
Print Post  
The optional solution is going to depend on a lot of factors. Guy that wins the match will figure it out. Single method won't work as well as one that suits the match rifle and conditions.

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bruce moulds
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 290
Location: the antipodes
Joined: Mar 14th, 2015
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #35 - Jan 7th, 2017 at 10:19pm
Print Post  
we all know that moisture/humidity softens black powder fouling.
the fouling plus correct type of lube turns into a soap in the presence of water.
is there another way?
for instance will oil soften fouling in itsef, and therefore could it be better in hot dry climates?
keep safe,
bruce.
  

ventum est amicus meus
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2622
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #36 - Jan 7th, 2017 at 10:56pm
Print Post  
RSW, by pure coincidence I was flipping through the SSE Classic Compendium Vol #1 and noticed an article titled "Fast Shooting with Winchester Rifles".  It tells of an old match (circa 1889) for $500 to make the most offhand bullseyes in 3 hours.

Hazard Fg was used in likely .38-55 rifles with Zettler Bros barrels.  Rifles were switched out every 15-20 shots to cool them down and wipe out the barrels.

One shooter fired 334 shots in 60 minutes, 247 shots in the black.

I thought you might find that interesting, and somewhat relevant.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1307
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #37 - Jan 8th, 2017 at 12:42am
Print Post  
Chris
The article you reference does seem interesting. Thanks for adding it to this thread. And it's perhaps relevant in that Strecker also used Hazard powder but FFG at the 1895 match. Hazard was a popular powder with the Schuetzen crowd.
Did the piece state at what distance the targets were set and who won the 500 bucks? That was a tidy sum of money in those days.
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2622
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #38 - Jan 8th, 2017 at 11:34am
Print Post  
I will read the article again to find more details, but the distance was 200 yards and I believe that the target was the German 25 ring.   They did talk about the barrels getting too hot.  I've never experienced that unless shooting in the hot sun, but then I've never tried shooting a round every 10 seconds Smiley

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Send TopicPrint