Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BPCR Shooting Dirty (Read 19150 times)
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1734
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #15 - Jan 3rd, 2017 at 3:07am
Print Post  
RSW wrote on Jan 2nd, 2017 at 2:58pm:

I think a decent argument could be made that "those blowtube contraptions surfacing now and then at auctions", were in fact used by shooters to blow a small mouthful of water through the barrel. Followed by a dry patch on a cleaning rod to push out the fouling, then another dry patch to remove residual moisture. In addition, the water would have a small cooling effect on the barrel. After all; if it were “common knowledge” nobody would have written about it, right?

Don't forget that this little Halford book is what we would call nowadays 'Rifle shooting for dummies', so a book to introduce novices to rifle shooting.  And novices wouldn't be aware of even the things that were common between shooters.  Which is why this little book is so nice, it states the obvious.
As to cleaning between shots, the NRA (UK) rules specifically prohibited such as from the mid-1880's I believe, so no cleaning rods, patches etc.  Metford actually doesn't talk about a blowtube, he specifically mentions it is not required for fouling control - he considers breathing down the bore good enough. He also warned that without fouling management accuracy would suffer, and (paper) patches could be stripped. 

The 'no cleaning rule' was pretty clear actually - you shot in competition, you couldn't clean between shots.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7732
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #16 - Jan 3rd, 2017 at 6:39am
Print Post  
Lets don't forget different match rules required different solutions.  BPCS NRA rules mean short time strings fired from cross sticks. No doubt prone long range 19th century the same. Blow tubing is appropriate .

Schuetzen has always given more time for a shot, enough time to wipe .   Muzzle loaded cartridge rifles very long time to load, and effectively wipe the bore when the bullet is seated. When breech seating came into the sport most shooters used smokeless, fowling no longer an issue. 

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1307
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #17 - Jan 3rd, 2017 at 2:01pm
Print Post  
Boats
The Schuetzen game, c.1900, was different than it is conducted today. Back then, loading was done at a table behind the firing line. Shooters would seat their bullet, breech seated or muzzle loaded, leaving the chamber empty. Then carry their rifle to the firing line, give their shooting ticket to the score keeper or rack the rifle if the lane was busy and wait their turn. In turn, each shooter would move to the line, load a charged cartridge and take their shot. After taking a shot, shooter returned to the loading table and started the process over for their next shot. Actually it worked quite smoothly and rapidly as the loading tables were generally, immediately behind the firing line.
If Strecker was shooting dirty, with a handful of fixed ammo in his pocket, all he had to do after taking a shot was get back in line. With, let’s say 3-5 shooters at a lane, he could probably get a shot off every couple of minutes. If the lane was not busy, he could just stand there and fire shot after shot using fixed ammo. Such as situation could well account for the story relating that his rifle’s metal got so hot it could not be touched with bare hands.
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
MartiniBelgian
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1734
Location: Aarschot
Joined: Jun 7th, 2004
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #18 - Jan 3rd, 2017 at 2:13pm
Print Post  
Hmmm.... a shot every few minutes with something like a 32-40 or a 38-55, and the barrel getting too hot to touch?  That does sound improbable.  
I've done that type of shooting with BP and far bigger cartridges (at around 85-90grs a shot), shooting with 3 shooters per target - at best you can get the barrel warm, but not even uncomfortably hot, certainly not too hot to touch, unless mid-summer, and with the rifle in the sun.  And then the rifle could become uncomfortably hot even without shooting...
It would take more than a shot every few minutes to get the barrel 'too hot to touch' IMO. Something like several shots a minute.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Robert L
Participating Member
*
Offline



Posts: 23
Location: Southern Illinois
Joined: Sep 14th, 2010
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #19 - Jan 5th, 2017 at 5:43pm
Print Post  
I've been shooting BPCR for about 15 years. I only make the more local matches but the setup is the same everywhere.  I did make Raton back in 2004. I have to say that I have never, and I do mean never, seen anyone wiping between shots. I am truly puzzled by this thread and the concept of accuracy falling off because of a dirty barrel. Everyone I know and have seen at these matches uses a blow tube but I have never seen anyone wipe between shots. The fact that everything except chickens is shot from the prone or sitting position makes the concept of wiping seem unduly difficult.  Getting up and down isn't so easy as it was when I was a young man to say nothing of the time involved. As far as accuracy is concerned I have seen no loss of same as I shoot through a match. Either my shooting process is drastically different than many who have replied to this thread or I am missing something here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
desert-dude
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 439
Location: Selah
Joined: Jul 23rd, 2013
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #20 - Jan 5th, 2017 at 6:22pm
Print Post  
Just for kicks I looked up UK rainfall vis a vis the no cleaning rule.  Summer months in the 60's, i.e. 60-70 mm.
Dec - Jan tending toward 100 mm. These were means over 30 years or so and local to
London. The Midlands didn't look too much different. 
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2622
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #21 - Jan 5th, 2017 at 9:28pm
Print Post  
Robert L wrote on Jan 5th, 2017 at 5:43pm:
I've been shooting BPCR for about 15 years. I only make the more local matches but the setup is the same everywhere.  I did make Raton back in 2004. I have to say that I have never, and I do mean never, seen anyone wiping between shots. I am truly puzzled by this thread and the concept of accuracy falling off because of a dirty barrel. Everyone I know and have seen at these matches uses a blow tube but I have never seen anyone wipe between shots. The fact that everything except chickens is shot from the prone or sitting position makes the concept of wiping seem unduly difficult.  Getting up and down isn't so easy as it was when I was a young man to say nothing of the time involved. As far as accuracy is concerned I have seen no loss of same as I shoot through a match. Either my shooting process is drastically different than many who have replied to this thread or I am missing something here.


I shoot more BPTR than silhouette, but I almost never see anyone ever do anything but wipe between shots.  I shoot sihouette that way too and am faster than most of the blow tubers I see. 

In the original days of long range shooting, complete cleaning of the bore between shots seems to have been the norm.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2622
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #22 - Jan 5th, 2017 at 11:29pm
Print Post  
Joe I think that blow tubing is probably still the most popular way to shoot silhouette.  For grease groove shooting, in places where it's not too hot and dry it might still be the best way to get a consistent bore condition.

I don't actually remember anyone blow tubing at any of the BPTR matches I've been shooting in recently, but I imagine some guys might have been.  I do know that this spring at the Wyoming state midrange match several shooters fouled out even with wiping the bore between shots.   I used three damp patches with no fouling problems, and still had tons of time for my 4 sighters and 10 for score. 

For wiping to really work it takes a while to develop an efficient system.   When I first started I was told that I looked like a monkey humping a football  Cheesy.  It took me a little while to get it sorted out.  Now I can do it all without having to move my hips or lower body which helps maintain a consistent position.   A very common setup these days is a flexible Delrin rod with a nylon brush.  Two or three quick damp patches and the job is done. With paper patched bullets you want at least one dry one afterward too.   

The fastest bore management system, by far, seems to be the new bore mop system sold by Dave Gullo.  I've seen a couple of people use it now and it is super efficient.  A single pass of the rod is all it needs.  I have yet to try my set of these things though.   

I will post no more about it in Mr Wright's thread though as it's getting far from his original direction.

I personally suspect that if you want to shoot black powder "dirty" and be successful you want to look at different types of rifling. 

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzenmiester
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 6707
Location: Cool Wet Side of WA
Joined: Apr 27th, 2008
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #23 - Jan 5th, 2017 at 11:56pm
Print Post  
I made those bore mops 20 years ago.  Push one through followed by a dry patch. They are finally catching on?  Roll Eyes
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ResearchPress
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 110
Location: UK
Joined: Aug 18th, 2004
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #24 - Jan 6th, 2017 at 2:02am
Print Post  
RSW wrote on Jan 2nd, 2017 at 2:58pm:
.....possibly being common knowledge that the old long range shooters used blow tubes. My understanding is the jury is still out on that being settled, factually.


The NRA(GB) regulations changed in 1883 and cleaning out between shots was prohibited. Humphry & Fremantle in their History of the NRA (1859-1909) published in 1914 note that the "result of the change was to encourage the use of powders which would produce less fouling, though with sharper explosion." They continue..

"But so long as black powders were the only kinds available for rifle shooting, there was necessarily some fouling, which in a dry atmosphere might at any time cause inaccurate shooting, and to diminish the chance of this it became the regular practice to blow freely down the barrel between shots, usually by means of a tube inserted in the breech, in order to give the fouling the benefit of the moisture of the breath. This practice naturally extended into Service Rifle."

The practice died out with the introduction of smokeless powders  which left the bore clear of residue.

David
« Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2017 at 3:15am by ResearchPress »  

David Minshall - (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) - (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Firearms, long range target shooting and military history
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Bent_Ramrod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1583
Location: Southern Arizona
Joined: Feb 8th, 2006
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #25 - Jan 6th, 2017 at 10:17am
Print Post  
I think there are two different subjects being discussed here.  Long range BPCR shooting, or even Mid-Range shooting, is not "forty-rod" Shuetzen shooting, even with black powder.  The smaller charge, even in a smaller caliber, was a big advantage at the shorter range.

Mattern mentioned that the .32-20 was once the most popular caliber for reloading, because more shots could be fired before the bore fouled than with other calibers.  A .32-35, especially when loaded fixed in an Everlasting case, would perhaps have some of this advantage, because it might have a lower than nominal powder charge.

A lot of discussion in the Good Old Days was connected to which brand of black powder burned "moister" than others. Such "moist burning" would keep the fouling soft, even without a blow tube.  I don't remember who wrote about it, maybe Roberts or Donaldson, but somebody mentioned keeping his powder in a cigar humidor to maintain this moist burning.

Such storage under constant humidity could be tested scientifically nowadays.  The CRC Handbook lists a number of saturated solutions of certain salts which maintain a constant humidity over the solution.  We used to make up such solutions in the bottom of dessicators and store materials therein which needed to be "conditioned" under constant humidities.  A sample of black powder could be conditioned in this way, and then sealing it into a fixed cartridge would ensure the moisture content, and the "moist burning," at least through the time of the match.  This would, ideally, obviate the need for blowing, wiping or cleaning, especially in an offhand match at 200 yards, where other factors would certainly influence scores.  It might have been "common knowledge," or, like early duplexing, might have been a secret shooter's edge, and not revealed by the winners.

I shoot monthly in a BPCR silhouette match, and I am the only one who uses a blow tube any more.  Everybody else wipes their bores, shooting prone or offhand. I've started trying paper patch loads, and wiping between shots, and it is a fair amount of frantic activity, even when sitting.  (I am also the only sitting position shooter at the matches.) The other guys are like the old frontiersmen; they don't move fast, but cover a lot of ground.  They get their shots off, even with wiping, with plenty of time to spare.

And, of course, there is the luck factor.  Mr. Strecker might have just gotten lucky.  Did he win multiple matches this way?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2622
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #26 - Jan 6th, 2017 at 10:29am
Print Post  
You make an excellent point Bent Ramrod, my .32-40's with black powder, shot at covered ranges, out of the sun, are far easier to deal with than a long range rifle shooting more than 90gr of powder while lying on the ground with the barrel exposed to the hot sun.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1307
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #27 - Jan 6th, 2017 at 11:55am
Print Post  
Bent_Ramrod
Strecker was a consistent match winner from the late 1870s through about 1905 or perhaps even later. He shot muzzle loaders until the early or mid 1890s, then switched to a 32-40 Winchester HighWall.
The match referenced in my original post was the 1st National Schuetzen Bund Festival of 1895, held at the old Glendale Schuetzen Park on Long Island, NY.
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2622
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #28 - Jan 6th, 2017 at 12:07pm
Print Post  
RSW, is the maker of his barrel known, or was it a factory produced barrel?  It is an impressive thing to be able to shoot competitively without cleaning.   I have a friend that shoots a military trapdoor without cleaning or blow tubing.  It's a different game entirely of course, but he thinks that his rifle works well that way due to the rifling.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rhbrink
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 180
Location: Cass Co. MO.
Joined: Jun 12th, 2011
Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #29 - Jan 6th, 2017 at 1:51pm
Print Post  
I used to shot with feller in the BPCR game that shot a 45-70 Shilo I believe using the Lyman Government bullet. He made his own lube and would shoot the full match the only time that he would use a blow tube would be between relays where the rifle would set for an extended time. He never used a blow tube while shooting at the bank of animals. No leading and he shot OK, AA class I think but he never wanted out of that class. I asked him three different times how he made his lube and got three different answers? And I never did make it work as well for me but if any is interested I could see if I find that recipe and post it?

RB
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Send TopicPrint