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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BPCR Shooting Dirty (Read 19116 times)
RSW
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BPCR Shooting Dirty
Jan 1st, 2017 at 1:04pm
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I would like to start off the new year by posing a question for those of us who shoot BPCR or BPC Schuetzen. I was reading an account of the 1st National Schuetzen Bund Festival of 1895 and there was a bit in there about Adolph Strecker* (expert San Francisco shooter). He was shooting a Winchester 32-35-165 with fixed ammo using grease groove bullets. He seated the bullets in the case to the top cannelure and his bullet lube was described as being of this own formulation. His loads were known to have been straight black powder as no one at that tournament used any smokeless powder, not even as a priming charge. It described how he shot all day long without cleaning his rifle. We are talking about more than 100 shots over a day. At one point his rifle was described as being so hot, the metal could not be touched with bare hands.
Strecker was a top competitor of his day, right up there along with Dorrler, Hayes, Ross, etc.
Now I’ve shot a lot of black powder cartridge loads but never have I been able to get more than 2-3 shots with any kind of accuracy.
DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW HE WAS ABLE TO CONTINUE SHOOTING WITH MATCH-WINNING ACCURACY FOR OVER 100 SHOTS WITHOUT CLEANING THE BARREL?

*I’m not holding up Strecker as some sort of super hero, it’s just that he was named in the article.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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SSShooter
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #1 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 2:10pm
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Did he blow-tube? Many BPCR shooters today still blow-tube and will shoot the match without any loss of accuracy over as many as 80+ shots.
  

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oneatatime
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #2 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 2:49pm
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Probably blow tubing. Sir Henry Halford, famous British target shooter of the 19th century, in his book says something to the effect of "when you're low, blow".
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #3 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 2:53pm
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I corresponded with the Mad Monk, aka Bill Knight, nearly 20 years ago.  He did chemical analysis on many powders including samples of  original  batches. He said those 19th century powders shot much cleaner and shot to shot fouling was not an issue like it is today.  If my memory is correct,  Roll Eyes, buckthorne alder charcoal is critical to producing top quality BP.
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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RSW
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #4 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 3:42pm
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Blow tubing is a possibility. I have been doing research for about 3 years on the old turn of the 20th century Schuetzen matches and I have yet to come across any reference to that practice however. Some of the old loading descriptions are detailed and as yet, I've seen no mention of blowing through the barrel either from muzzle or breech.
In order to move from the realm of conjecture that any the old Schuetzen shooters used blow tubes, some supportive historical reference(s) would need to be found. 
That the old black powders might have burned cleaner than today's is also a possibility. This winter/spring I will be testing that as I have a small quantity of Laflin & Rand FFG that's probably 100 years old. The stuff appears to be in perfect condition and I've been told still shoots great.
My search continues.
  

Randy W
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #5 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 8:44pm
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I just remembered Pope advising "blowing the barrel"  if the next shot was not loaded immediately.  I believe that was in reference to ML the next bullet.

Edit: I think that was in the Pope's Barrels book.  Can't recall the exact title.
« Last Edit: Jan 1st, 2017 at 9:21pm by Schuetzenmiester »  

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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #6 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 9:24pm
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Schuetzenmeister
Thank you for remembering Pope's instructions and joining the discussion. 
You are correct about Pope's comment about blowing down the barrel. It was from his instructions on how to handle a muzzle loader.
I looked it up and it reads:
"DON’T forget to seat the bullet and shoot a charge of powder only: if you do either of the latter, clean or blow the barrel well as it will load very hard and may break your rod."
In the case of Strecker, he was shooting fixed ammo and the referenced article stated nothing about blowing.
  

Randy W
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #7 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 10:00pm
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U R welcome  Grin   

One of the problems is "common knowledge" was not mentioned or recorded. Either everyone knew what to do or it wasn't an issue, eh?

Good luck with your old powder,  It will be interesting to see if it shoots clean.
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #8 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 10:26pm
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Fowling is different according to humidity too. I have shot long strings without wiping on humid days. 

Still better to wipe the bore between shots. Its consistent no matter what the condition.

Boats
  
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #9 - Jan 1st, 2017 at 11:29pm
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Schuetzenmeister
If blow tubing was "common knowledge" (it may well have been) it seems odd that no one in the Schuetzen game wrote of it, at least not that I've come across. Details about seating bullets to the top cannelure in his cases and that he did not clean during that day's shooting were stated but no mention of blowing.

Boats
Thanks for jumping in. You raise a good point about humidity. That's one that would be difficult for me to test. Here in the Az desert, unless a storm front is moving through, average humidity is below 40%
  

Randy W
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #10 - Jan 2nd, 2017 at 12:32am
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Since he mentioned not cleaning, I doubt if he was doing anything else if he did not mention it. 

Humidity have very well been a positive issue.  Weren't most of the famous ranges and schuetzen matches on the east and west (CA) coasts  and midwest other than Colorado?

Certainly a big difference shooting in Raton and Tacoma  Grin
  

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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #11 - Jan 2nd, 2017 at 2:44am
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I wouldn't be too sure about it being mentioned if being common practice.  When reading contemporary literature regarding long-range shooting in the UK, especially about the period when cleaning between shots wasn't permitted, you will have to search a lot to find references re. blowtubing or breathing down the barrel, it simply isn't mentioned by most, as it was considered to be common knowledge.  Only Halford gives it a brief mention in  'The art of shooting the rifle', but other books (Including Stonehenge, which is considered to be a reference work) don't mention it at all.  Kinda like why state the obvious?  But you do see some blowtube contraptions surfacing now and then at auctions - few and far in between, admittedly, but they are there.
And while some contemporary BP's might have been a bit cleaner burning than what we have now, don't forget it still remains black, the composition hasn't changed - meaning it will leave quite a lot of solids behind after firing.
  
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #12 - Jan 2nd, 2017 at 12:48pm
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And, they had Metford rifling.
  
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #13 - Jan 2nd, 2017 at 2:58pm
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MarinBelgian
Please don’t take this as non-acceptance about it possibly being common knowledge that the old long range shooters used blow tubes. My understanding is the jury is still out on that being settled, factually. I’ve not done research on old time long range shooting but it seems the historical reference is only Halford’s The Art of Shooting the Rifle. Please set me straight on that, if I’m wrong. 
I think a decent argument could be made that "those blowtube contraptions surfacing now and then at auctions", were in fact used by shooters to blow a small mouthful of water through the barrel. Followed by a dry patch on a cleaning rod to push out the fouling, then another dry patch to remove residual moisture. In addition, the water would have a small cooling effect on the barrel. After all; if it were “common knowledge” nobody would have written about it, right?
My point is not to cast doubt on whether the old shooters used blow tubes or not but to confirm they did, additional old references need to be found.
In the Schuetzen game, which is my reference here, is that I have found no references to blow tube use and that story I referenced, stated that Strecker shot all day without cleaning. Based on that story being factual, I’m asking if any one knows how that might have been accomplished. Using a blow tube is one possibility.
  

Randy W
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Re: BPCR Shooting Dirty
Reply #14 - Jan 2nd, 2017 at 7:17pm
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This thread reminded me of an issue of the Single Shot Exchange a couple of years ago.  I think right after Lee Shaver took it over.  The issue had two reprinted old articles, or maybe an old article and an old letter, regarding shooting dirty.  The first talked about how you could shoot dirty and maintain good accuracy, and the second had the complete opposite point of view.  I think the timelines would be the 1890's IIRC.  So even the old timers, with their old powder, did not have a common viewpoint on the feasibility.

I do remember that the article that wrote positively about shooting dirty did not make accuracy claims that were particularly impressive.

With respect to long range shooting on this side of the pond, I have not read anything that indicated shooters here did anything other than clean the bores very carefully between shots.

Chris.
  
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