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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Small differences - casting. (Read 35696 times)
RayH
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Small differences - casting.
Dec 29th, 2016 at 7:49pm
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Has anyone studied ...........
same mould, brass, powder, charge, primer, seating depth,   range conditions, etc. .............
the only difference being the ratio of (certified) lead:tin?

Given, 25:1 produces slightly heavier bullets than from 20:1.   

Is there an effect 200 yards down range?  due to ...... weight  of bullet? ability of bullet to maintain pressure throughout the time in the barrel?

Will the difference in weight of +- 2% bullet weight affect accuracy? 

My next range tests will be addressing these issues. Can anyone save me some time?   

Thanks.



  

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FITZ-G
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #1 - Dec 29th, 2016 at 8:06pm
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The only way you could define a difference would be Bench shooting with a Load that has produced a significant group repeatedly such that you are sure of it. Then you change your alloy ONLY! And shoot again with no other changes. You are looking at very small changes and will need a really good base to compare against. HTH Regards, FITZ-G. Smiley
  
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calledflyer
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #2 - Dec 29th, 2016 at 8:07pm
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I, personally, think that very small variance is unlikely to make a difference in most rifles. How much before any rifle shows a dislike (assuming you started with a "like"), is probably each rifle's decision. I have one that is fairly tolerant, but a fellow I shoot with sometimes thinks any variation is intolerable by him, and his rifle. Do some tests and you'll know what your rifle likes. Good luck.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #3 - Dec 29th, 2016 at 8:19pm
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I'm interested in reading the results! I think 200 yds. wont show much if any difference. Probably have to go farther to see any significant differences.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #4 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 1:19am
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I had slightly better accuracy using 20:1 over 30:1 when I was testing in the early 90s in my 33-47 Stevens Pope barrel. The 30:1 was slightly better with about .2 gr less 4227 than the 20:1 shot best with, but the 30:1 at its best was still inferior to 20:1. I did not notice any change in impact at 200 yards. Pope said 15:1 should shoot better but they would be too had to breech seat, so I didn't go there. 

Have fun, it takes lots of lead and powder in good conditions to see the difference and get consistent results.
  

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40_Rod
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #5 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:02am
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My experience tells me that this is something that your not going to see in a day firing a couple of groups of each. The changes are more subtle than that and will probably only show up over 40 or 50 sessions.  I have found small changes like this have as much to do with expectations and confidence than they do with results.

40 rod
  
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JLouis
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #6 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 1:09pm
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Ray I have and the improvement has more to do with controlling nose slump than it does bullet weight and it shows even more so when using a long unsupported nose spitzer and I typicaly use 1-16. I tend to get a little leading if going harder and the only reason I don't. 

JLouis
  

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FITZ-G
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #7 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 2:13pm
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Schuetzenmiester, what bullet do you use. I ask because Pope may have been able to get by because of his bullet mold shapes. Lots of TAPER! Base band is the only one up to and some times slightly over Bore Size. Most of my 32-40 bullets are as small as .312 at the front band and the base band .323 to one I have is .327. Now all of these Breech seat easily in standard Factory chambers. They only Engrave the last two bands Lightly. Yesterday I cast some from a Pope Double cavity in .33 caliber, Base Band is .334, front band is .327. Have not tried to breach seat them yet but will as I have 2 .33 caliber Rifles. One a Schoyen and the other a Hi wall of dubious history. I call it my want to be Pope. Pope style Rifling, Left Hand Twist. Full Helm Style. But no Pope stamping on it any where. Every Pope Mold I have is significantly Tapered. He may have been able to Breach seat 15/1 is where I am going with this description. Think it over, HTH Regards FITZ-G Smiley
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #8 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 3:43pm
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Every Pope Mold I have is significantly Tapered. He may have been able to Breach seat 15/1 is where I am going with this description. Think it over, HTH 
----------------------------------------
You have a very good point there. Westerner cast up some Pope 33's for me to shoot in my rifle. Mine is .330 bore and .337 groove. The 6 band Pope bullet measured .328 for the frist 3 bands, then .332, .336, with the base band at .340. Note the first 3 bands where .002 under size of the bore.

I have no idea what a "standard" bore and groove would have been in a Pope barrel but, I would have thought a bore of .327 - .328 and a groove of .338, for a .005-6 groove depth. Seems a little deep for those days.

Back to my rifle, I shoot 2 ten shot groups, one with the Pope bullet and one with my bullet. I was very surprised of the out come. Remember, the Pope was .002 smaller than the bore on the first 3 bands.

My bullet shot about a 2.5 group @ 200 and the Pope, about 3.1 but, they both had 6-7 shot clusters of about 1 5/8. I WAS VERY SURPRISED!

MY BULLET WAS CYLINDERICAL @ .337 with a .340 base band, 5 bands. The Pope, of course BSed easy. I wish I had more bullets to re-read a few times.

I can post pictures of the 2 groups later.

Frank
« Last Edit: Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:04pm by frnkeore »  

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bruce moulds
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #9 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 4:34pm
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j louis makes a good point.
nose slump is the enemy of long range shooters, due to loss of b.c. this translates to greater wind deflection.
slump can also put the bullet off balance if it is off centre.
experience has proven that 16:1 has less drop at 1000 yds than 20:1, and 12:1 has less again.
this using patched to bore bullets in fixed ammo.
the question is whether the harder bullets are lighter and therefore have higher muzzle velocity?
the answer is that while that might be true to a degree, the difference in drop is more pronounced as the range increases, suggesting a b.c improvement.
were it a velocity thing it would be the other way around.
long range shooters of the era shot bullets as hard as 10:1, with the softest being 14:1, with bullets patched to bore diameter.
with 12:1 patched to bore bullets bumping up to take the rifling and sealing the bullet in the barrel, one wonders how correctly fitting breech seated greasers are leading the barrel.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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oneatatime
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #10 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 6:49pm
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I don't know how Bruce did it but in my case with my 38-50 and a long nosed DT mini-groove from a Paul Jones mould it was easy to see the difference on the rams at 500 meters. Unexplained fliers with 20 to 1 disappeared with 16 to 1 after reading DT's recommendation on alloy for the bullet.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #11 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 7:51pm
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Having put over 144,000 bullets down the barrel of my CPA 52 32-40 most of it doing exstensive testing has proven it only to myself without any doubts. If I did not know exactly how my rifle shot by then to be able to recogonize a difference then I would not expect anyone here to believe anything I have ever had to share and I don't. I would only encourage you to do the same as I and others have done and to get out and to only prove it to yourself. It surely can not be done by simply typing in the question and then doubting what anyone has to say only to question their answers based on their own personal findings while you are not knowing if they are true, false or simply unproven opinions. For you new shooters save your empty primer trays to keep track of how many bullets you have sent down your own barrels as you might wonder so some day.

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bruce moulds
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #12 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 9:07pm
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joe,
2 points (approx 2 moa) less comeup required with 12:1 than 16:1, and similar with 16 and 20:1.
as described in the previous post, i am confident this is due to better retention of nose shape, which in turn translates to higher b.c.
it also translates into less time of flight, and therefore less wind deflection. this also seems to hold true in windshear situations.
the differences in moa at 500/600 yds is about 1 moa. it gets better the further out you go.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #13 - Dec 30th, 2016 at 10:35pm
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FITZ-G wrote on Dec 30th, 2016 at 2:13pm:
Schuetzenmiester, what bullet do you use. I ask because Pope may have been able to get by because of his bullet mold shapes. Lots of TAPER! ..He may have been able to Breach seat 15/1 is where I am going with this description. Think it over, HTH Regards FITZ-G Smiley


l have a Pope style bullet made by Dave Farmer at Hoch 25 years +/- ago.  It has taper  Roll Eyes  Starts at .342 down to about .328. I believe. 

I have since discovered lube is more important at 200 yards than the bullet mix. The experimental experience seems endless with so little time  Lips Sealed

The lube issue seems to be unique to my barrel. Others have good results with lubes I have rejected.
  

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RayH
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Re: Small differences - casting.
Reply #14 - Dec 31st, 2016 at 8:14am
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I am unclear as to what exactly "nose slump" is and when and where it occurs. It seems to me the shape of the bullet does not change; rather, the centerline of the flight path develops a downward position at some point. In the barrel? Early in its path? ..... or near its time of discharge from the barrel? In the air?

I expect to see very minor differences on the target from my testing, but feel every little detail contributes to the overall performance. I value all my range time as learning experience and always shoot with reason and hope of finding another piece to the puzzle.

Thank you all for your helpful input. You are all my mentors, for better or worse and I always consider all points of view and knowledge presented while making my own decisions - again, for better or worse.

Happy New Year and Good Shooting to all.

Ray
  

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