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BP
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Relative Burn Rate?
Dec 20th, 2016 at 9:23pm
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Was browsing through Sharpe's book the other night, and got to looking at the old powders again.
I've seen Hi Vel #2 listed next to Reloader 7 on one chart, but has anyone ever seen the relative position of Hi Vel #3?
Sharpe seemed to indicate that Hi Vel #3 was faster than Hi Vel #2.
  

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JS47
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #1 - Dec 20th, 2016 at 11:06pm
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Try this site.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

After I posted this I went over to my shop to look at a hardcopy I have that's easier to read and couldn't find Hi-Vel #3.  Not much help.

JS
« Last Edit: Dec 20th, 2016 at 11:26pm by JS47 »  
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waterman
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #2 - Dec 21st, 2016 at 2:57am
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HiVel #3 was a double-base powder with a lot of nitroglycerin.  It became chemically unstable at very low (sub-zero) temperatures.  The nitroglycerin separated and detonated.  Not good for either shooter or rifle.

That is what killed off the .401 WSL cartridge and led to abandoning the Model 1910 Winchester autoloader in the 1930s.

I read somewhere that the burn rate was close to 4227 or to the old 2400.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #3 - Dec 21st, 2016 at 12:00pm
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waterman wrote on Dec 21st, 2016 at 2:57am:
HiVel #3 was a double-base powder with a lot of nitroglycerin.  It became chemically unstable at very low (sub-zero) temperatures.  The nitroglycerin separated and detonated.  Not good for either shooter or rifle.

That is what killed off the .401 WSL cartridge and led to abandoning the Model 1910 Winchester autoloader in the 1930s.

I read somewhere that the burn rate was close to 4227 or to the old 2400.


I hadn't heard of the instability of HV #3 as posted above but, I've studied Sharpes book and got the opinion that HV#3 was closer to 4198.

Both HV powders where kind of a enigma and seemed to do things that Dupont powders couldn't. By that, I mean the burn rate seemed to swing over a much larger range. HV#2 was very close to 3031 but, could be slower in some chamberings, even producing velocity close to 4350.

It was said the HV#2 & 3 burned hotter and eroded throats much faster and I supposed, that is what caused their end?

I don't have any #3 but, I have 6 lb of #2 that I haven't tried. It's a large grained, solid, extruded powder and doesn't measure very well like 4350 but 4350 is still around. So that's not why it ended.

As I remember from Sharpes book, HV#3 worked very well in 30/30 and 32/40, as well as other fairly small cases, in HV loads and exceeded HV#2 in some other loadings. But, it's long gone now.

Frank

  

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BP
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #4 - Dec 21st, 2016 at 3:00pm
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Here's a few notes from Sharpe's book (1937)...

For HiVel #2:
     "HiVel #2 is a double-based powder with about 15% of nitroglycerine."
      "It has been asserted by some authorities that HiVel is highly erosive, but it is believed that this statement is in error. Despite the fact that it has a greater potential, this powder requires a much lower weight of charge to develop equal velocities, and this, together with lower pressure, more than offsets the combustion temperature."

For Hercules #2400:
     "It is a very fine-grained dense type, similar in composition to HiVel."

For HiVel #3:
     "... Although first produced in 1926, it was not released to the cannister trade until early in the summer of 1935. It is slightly smaller in granulation than HiVel #2, runs reasonably well through the average powder measure and is superbly accurate and flexible. In the .300 Savage a charge as low as 10 grains can be used behind a 154-grain plain lead-based bullet developing a velocity of 1180 f.s. and a pressure too low to register. A charge of 16 grains with the same bullet gives a velocity of 1460 f.s. with a pressure of only 8400. By the same token, it operates excellently at pressures as high as 50,000 pounds or more, and in the .300 Savage with the 180-grain 30/06 bullet, 31.5 grains gives a muzzle velocity of 2420 with a pressure of 49,000 pounds. ..."

waterman,
Do you remember where you got the info on the nitroglycerin separation and detonation at sub-zero temps?

Frank,
It's long gone from dealers shelves, but it turns out that it ain't all gone.    Wink
  

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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #5 - Dec 21st, 2016 at 6:56pm
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I hadn't heard that Hi-Vel #3 separated out, but it was certainly only a short time on the market.  Never heard what happened to Hi-Vel #1, if there ever was such a thing.

I read somewhere that the .22-3000 Lovell cartridge was at its best with Hi-Vel #3, and when the powder went off the market, the shell had to have a bottleneck put in it to reclaim the efficiency (or accuracy or velocity; I can't remember), and thus was born the .22-3000 R2 Lovell.

I keep running across cans of Hi-Vel #2.  It is really good for full house loads  in the .25-35.  Seems to be somewhere in the 3031-4895 range of burn rate.
  
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #6 - Dec 21st, 2016 at 10:01pm
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I came into shooting just about five years before Hivel #2 was discontinued. It was a great Powder worked well in everything from 25-35 up to 30-06 with heavy charges. One that stands out in my mind which I did shoot with success was 39 gr Hivel#2 behind a 180 Gr Spitzer Flat Base bullet from Sierra. In a 30-06 M70 Target it Shot very well out to 300 Yds. I was disappointed when it went off the Market and for many years after I bought all I could find where ever it was. But it slowly disappeared. Regards FITZ. Embarrassed
  

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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #7 - Dec 22nd, 2016 at 3:36am
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BP,  without checking, I am reasonably sure that the source is Sharpe's 1937 book, but not in the loading section.  Maybe in a section on powder storage & handling.  It may also have come from Landis.  Landis worked for Hercules and also edited a Canadian gun magazine. Maybe "Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles"?  I'll dig around after Christmas.

I don't think Crossman would have touched anything that controversial.

As I remember the tale, several boxes, maybe several cases, of ammo commercially loaded with HV#3 had been stored in several unheated storage buildings belonging to the Hudson Bay Company at locations across northern Canada.  Some of the ammo spent 3 or 4 winters in temps that went into the -40 range and got up into the 70s or higher in the summers.  Most of the ammo was .401 WSL, but not all of it.  IIRC, some might have been the WHV loads for .44-40 headstamped M-92.  When the local Indians & trappers started to use the ammo, rifles started blowing up.   

All that happened in the mid-1930s.  That is when Winchester dropped the Model 1910 rifle and changed the loads for the .401 WSL.  When did the WHV loads disappear?
  
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #8 - Dec 22nd, 2016 at 6:31pm
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waterman,

Read through the section on powder storage & handling in Sharpe's book, but no mention of the .401 WSL or 44 WCF HiVel incident there.

Don't know when the 44 WCF HiVel production ceased, but the 32 WCF HiVel is said to have continued to the late 60's and maybe early 70's, depending on manufacturer.
  

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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #9 - Dec 26th, 2016 at 1:04am
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Christmas is over & the relatives went home.  I searched again & found the citation about the demise of HiVel #3.

Citation is:  Charles S. Landis.  Twenty-Two Caliber Varmint Rifles, 1948.  Pages 441 & 442 cover much of the instability in extreme cold.  Landis worked for Hercules Powder Co. and was also the editor of at least one Canadian guns & hunting magazine.   

Another chapter on the development of the Donaldson Wasp implies that the burn rate of HiVel #3 is about that of IMR 3031.  Which would make it not that much different from HiVel #2.
  
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #10 - Dec 26th, 2016 at 2:42am
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waterman,

Thank you for locating that citation, and the approximate burn rate.
Interesting information!
  

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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #11 - Dec 26th, 2016 at 12:11pm
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Further digging into Landis and then into the Winchester history indicates that the commercial failure of Winchester and purchase by Olin and the cold weather failures in Canada happened at about the same time.  The result was the abandonment of the Model 1910 rifle.

HiVel #3 was apparently much like HiVel #2 but with a reduced grain size.  It was liked by some for full power loads in smaller capacity cases like the Zipper and Donaldson Wasp.

Continued factory loads for the .401 WSL were apparently either 2400 or 4227.  I have an old .401, hence my interest in the case and powders used.  The new 2400 is too fast & too hot, but 4227 loads from Sharpe work per his recommendations.  Shooting a .401 is an experience far different from an afternoon with your CPA 32-40.
  
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Re: Relative Burn Rate?
Reply #12 - Dec 27th, 2016 at 3:51pm
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There is also the attribute of energy content that relates to burn rate. While the burn rate may be the same or similar, the energy content can be higher and escalate pressures. The old powder charges are for a by-gone era and I will not take a chance on sacrificing a rifle for savings or convenience. 

The powder companies cannot exactly reproduce the powder from lot to lot. The powder sold to handloaders is tested and tested to assure it is within a narrow band for burn rate, energy content and stabilization. Any powder outside of these limits is sold to the ammo makers with a table exactly defining the burn rate, energy content stability for the ammo maker's reloading usage.
« Last Edit: Dec 27th, 2016 at 5:34pm by BudHyett »  

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