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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rdfield Olympic Front sight (Read 8806 times)
GeorgeC
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Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Nov 17th, 2016 at 5:32pm
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Would a Redfield Olympic Front globe sight be considered a legal front sight for traditional iron sight matches, either off hand or bench rest?
  

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RSW
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #1 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 5:48pm
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The traditional class rifle rules for the ASSRA, ISSA and WSU, all have a technology cut-off date of 1917. That is, if a particular technology or device was available prior to that year, it is allowed. 
I do not think front sights attached with a mounting block like the Redfield Olympic were available pre-1917. If you have published evidence such as a catalog (or copy thereof) showing that front mounting system was in use prior to the cut-off year, you would be good-to-go.
It would probably be helpful if you want to shoot in a traditional class, to familiarize yourself with those rules. Each organization has them available for download on their respective web sites.
Hope that helps.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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GeorgeC
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #2 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 6:16pm
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Randy, I am interpreting your statement to mean that if the barrel does not have a dovetail for the front sight, then it is not traditional.  Front sights like the Lyman 93 or Williams clamp on would be illegal, also.   
Then the only legal sights would be Lyman 17, Shaver type 17, Baldwin, MVA, Kelly, etc. 
So it doesn't have anything to do with the length, like the Kelly long front sight?
My reason for asking is that I have 2 CPA Pope style rifles that when I ordered them, I intended to use only scopes and just had the barrels D/T'd for bases rather than have dovetails cut. I had plan on using Lyman 93 front sights, but a friend gave me a couple of Redfield Olympic front sights and thought I might use them.   
Kind of like a previous post on here about barrel sleds had to fit a certain criteria but the rest that a sled rested upon could be the hydraulic, electric, etc.  IOW's no rules for rests. Just sayin......... 

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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #3 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 9:22pm
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GeorgeC
As I recall, the traditional rifle rules were adopted at the 1995 or 96 ISSA Schuetzenfest. I was working on my master's program at the time and did not attend that year. There have been several revisions over time. That set of traditional rules was subsequently adopted by the ASSRA and WSU almost verbatim. 
If you have not already done so, my suggestion is to familiarize yourself with the basic set of rules for the ASSRA, ISSA, and WSU, then read the traditional rules for each organization. I think the traditional rules will make more sense in that context.
Here is the section from the ISSA traditional rules that deals with sights and sleds.
2. Technology cutoff of circa 1917 as regards patents, sights, cartridges, loading techniques, and general configuration of the Schuetzen rifle. No modern block-style or wide-bottom forearms. Old-style muzzle rest “feet” are allowed, but must be attached to the barrel. No modern Olympic-style sights, rear iron sight diopters, adjustable buttplates, plastic sight inserts, or “Bloop tubes”. No machine rests. (For clarification a machine rest is any one-piece rest that supports the rifle at two points and allows the rifle to be mechanically adjusted, incrementally, front and back, for windage and elevation.)

Dimensions for a barrel sled were established at 6" wide, 1.5" deep and 3" high I think (I have yet to find my note on that). It was necessary to set limits on sleds as someone showed up for a match with a sled that weighed about 20 pounds, or so I've been told.
It is pretty well accepted that a front sight needs to be in a barrel dovetail. I am not aware if anyone has ever challenged that point.
As to there not being any rules governing a front rest, that's not exactly a fact. There is the spirit of the game. If a shooter tried to use some digitally controlled hydraulic wiz-bang front rest, my guess is the local Schuetzenmeister would request such a device be removed from the firing line.
« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2016 at 9:42pm by RSW »  

Randy W
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #4 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 9:25pm
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I may be wrong,  it's been known to happen,  LOL  but Id say in general that all or almost all of the American "Traditional-Class" front sights will be  transverse-dovetail mounted.  I'don't know when the Redfield style or some of the BSA and Walther-type sights originated.
  A couple of my Euro-rifles have a screwed on ramp with "wings" and a the sight pin itself fits into a small dovetail that runs parallel to the bore. 
But then some organizations may not recognize the European Schuetzen's as "traditional" anyway.

At least in ASSRA, the "traditional-class"rules are largely self imposed and policed and there really are no "traditional-only" only matches on the menu at the events.
There may have been a 'traditional-only" Buffalo Gun match shot at the Fall Event which required BP and fixed ammo along with the pr-1917 and big-bore requirements; but there were only a very few shooters who shot that match and it has been largely superseded by the "class-3" big bore matches.

If there is a question about a specific item it would be up to the Schuetzenmeister's judgement
« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2016 at 9:36pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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GeorgeC
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #5 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 9:45pm
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I don't shoot ISSA.  The ASSRA rule book does not say that a rifle has to have a dovetail sight.  "Olympic type sights" is very broad.  Just because the sight is named Olympic means it is not an olympic type sight with adjustable iris, etc.   
You still didn't address my reference about the bench rest (not the sled).  I consider the sled and a bench rest two separate pieces of equipment. A modern bench rest would not be in the spirit of before 1917 rules, but there are no rules governing say a Sinclair bench rest with cables and such.   
Would a Lyman Model 93 be legal?   
Please take my discussion in a positive note. I am surprised that no one else has joined in this discussion.  BTW, I have studied the rules and they are very subjective.

GeorgeC 
  

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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #6 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 9:50pm
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QM, thanks for your comment.  You posted as I was typing my last reply.
  

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GeorgeC
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #7 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 9:56pm
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Three examples. Which is legal?
« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2016 at 10:08pm by GeorgeC »  

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GeorgeC
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #8 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 10:06pm
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"Technology cutoff of circa 1917 as regards patents, sights, cartridges, loading techniques, and general configuration of the Schuetzen rifle. No modern block-style or wide-bottom forearms. Old-style muzzle rest “feet” are allowed, but must be attached to the barrel. No modern Olympic-style sights, rear iron sight diopters, adjustable butt plates, plastic sight inserts, or “Bloop tubes”. No machine rests. (For clarification a machine rest is any one-piece rest that supports the rifle at two points and allows the rifle to be mechanically adjusted, incrementally, front and back, for windage and elevation.)"

From the ASSRA rule book on traditional rifles.  Nothing is said that a post 1917 bench rest is legal---or not.  

GeorgeC
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #9 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 10:09pm
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I agree that they are subjective.    lets face it,   very few of the "original" schutzen-type shooter used a bench rest for anything but developmental work.   There WERE some actual what could be called bench rest matches in several forms, but schuetzen was predicated on offhand competition.

Our modern ASSRA competition is somewhat of a bridging effort between bench rest and more traditional offhand with the "traditional-CLASS" rifles thrown into the mix---more or less to suit the "purists" who enjoy shooting their original classic era rifles (and more power to them).
  As a result IF you are shooting with a self-designated "Traditional class" rifle the identifiers are basically the semi-arbitrary pre-1917 American classic single shot rifles and appropriate sights. 

  For the most part bench equipment is only what is legal in the general rules for all ASSRA competition.   I'm not sure there any rules at all that apply to the actual bench-rest design or mechanism for the bench rest competition.  So you could theoretically bring your electro-hydraulic worm gear bench-rest with the  micro-processor controls and still shoot a rifle that is "traditional-class" ----  but mind you no laser sights, down-range electronics or adjustable tuners Grin Grin Grin   Have fun!!!
  

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GeorgeC
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #10 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 10:12pm
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LMAO.  Thanks for your reply, I love it.
  

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GeorgeC
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #11 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 10:18pm
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QM. I refer you to page 5 of a post on sleds.

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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #12 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 10:46pm
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George
By my understanding of the traditional rules (ASSRA, ISSA and WSU), the sight in the upper right of your posted pics would be permitted.
If I understand your other question, you are looking for specificity for the front rest. I'm not a rules guru so I can offer you no definitive advice. I use a Sinclair Competition front rest. No one has offered any objection to it in the matches I shoot (both ASSRA and ISSA).
Well informed Schuetzenmeisters play a key role in rules interpretation.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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GeorgeC
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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #13 - Nov 17th, 2016 at 11:55pm
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Thanks Randy.  I assume you are looking at the photos on your phone, so from my computer perspective would the upper right be the 1st or 2nd photo?  The first being a Redfield that fits on a base, the 2nd fits in a dovetail, the 3rd fits on a base. I just hate to have a dovetail cut in two barrels if I don't have to.   
My other issue is that the parameters of a sled have to be such close tolerances when any kind of bench rest can be used.  I hope you don't think I am nitpicking, but that is JMHO.  BTW, I really like your bench set-up.
GeorgeC
  

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Re: Rdfield Olympic Front sight
Reply #14 - Nov 18th, 2016 at 11:56am
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George
The sight with a dovetail for barrel mounting is the one I was referring to.
Please keep in mind I am NOT the ruling authority on this subject. If you tell someone that Randy told you it is allowed, the answer is going to be Randy who? Before hacking a dovetail slot in your barrel, I recommend you clear it with the Schuetzenmeister of the match(s) you want to shoot. He/she might just say, you may shoot what'ja got.
My local club does not even recognize a traditional class. There just are not enough shooters for a separate class.
I understand your frustration about lack of specificity on some equipment aspects. If you feel the urge to mount your steed and tilt at windmills to make right those wrongs, you have my blessing  Wink
Thank you for the complement on my BR setup. That's the culmination of a lot of years shooting this game.
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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