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Mick B
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PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Oct 5th, 2016 at 8:29pm
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AT the moment I'm kicking around the idea of trying a PP bullet in my 40/60 Maynard CPA. According to BACO my Krieger barrel has a bore diameter of .400 and the groove dia is .408.
My question is this, I would like to patch to bore dia so what size mould should I buy ?.  As a matter of interest I did try to purchase some swaged PP bullets from BACO but for some reason they would not ship them to Australia. Strange as it may seem we do not have much of a problem here with the local crims using 40/60 Maynards for their drive by shootings for some reason. any advice would be appreciated.
Mike
PS I do have a supply of 9# Onion Skin paper that I got from BACO a couple of years ago to try in  my 45/90 so I will be using that.
  
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MT Chambers
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #1 - Oct 5th, 2016 at 9:50pm
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I'm not sure about your .40 cal. concerns but the US gov. will not allow any components except maybe shotgun supplies, to be shipped out of the US. This is a Homeland security thing and we are in the same boat here in Kanada, we cannot bring anything like that out of the USA. It is believed by some in that gov. that the components could be used against the USA. 
  The only thing that I agree on is the fact that Kanada has let most anybody into the country including many terrorists, that could then try to enter the US.
  
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RSW
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #2 - Oct 5th, 2016 at 10:28pm
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Mick B
Measure your patch paper with a micrometer. Just as an example, say it measures .0023 inches. You will probably be using a double lap patch so that equals four thicknesses of paper on your bullet, that's 4 X .0023=.0092. Subtract that from your bore diameter (.400): .400 - .0092 which is .3908. That is your bullet diameter, assuming it has a cylindrical body. In the real world, a .3908 bullet diameter will be .391.
Your slick bullet wrapped with a damp patch, when dry, will just kiss the rifling lands.
It may help to think of it this way; bullet diameter is based on the thickness of the patch paper (using my example above). A thicker or thinner patch paper may well require a different bullet diameter for best accuracy.
  

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bruce moulds
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #3 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 1:49am
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mick,
i also have a 0.400 bore in my 40/72.
what is suggested is that you get your paper and measure what 4 wraps add to the diameter of say a bolt or a bullet if you have one.
if you are going to wrap wet, do it that way and measure when dry.
from experience, the baco 9 lb paper i have adds 0.0065 to a bullet.
if you subtrat this from 0.400, you get 0.3935.
a 0.393 bullet will work ok and will suit blowtubing as it will be a little small.
a 0.394 bullet will be harder to chamber the round, but will most likely be more accurate. it will require good wiping and a dry bore.
the best accuracy comes from the fattest bullet and the thinnest paper that makes 0.400 and works.
many have found that seth cole 8 lb 55w works well.
it will add 0.005 to a bullet when wrapped wet.
you can get it from art supply warehouse and they will send to oz for fair postage rates.
my chamber is a greaser one, and I have had a mould made that patches to groove diameter for the part in the case, and bore diameter for the part in the bore.
no greaser can match it for accuracy, and I use it when testing greasers as a control.
if you go this way, you only need 0.2 to 0.250 at patch to groove diameter.
such bullets can be finger seated in fired cases with no sizing.
if you have a freebore chamber, you could make the larger diameter to that length plus however much you want in the case, which would ideally be 0.100 to 0.150.
my mould was custom made by rick at kal moulds, and has an elliptical nose 1.5 calibres long.
it shoots well out to 1000 yards and bullets are usually cast at 12:1 or 14:1.
they fully bump up to the ogive, but no more at that alloy.
they shoot with a little less drop at 200 and 300 yds than 16:1. and a full 7 points flatter at 900 and 1000 yds.
this translates to less wind deflection.
if you want to breech seat, a straight sided bullet is easiest.
I currently have a baco 0.396 bullet that patches to 0.401 with 8 lb seth cole, and breech seat with a palm seater o.k.
when I found the right airgap that bullet shoots 10 shot groups  about 3/4".
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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gunlaker
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #4 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 11:35am
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Mike, one thing I did several years ago for one of my rifles was to buy some pin gauges and patch them like I would a bullet.  This allowed me to test their fit in the bore before committing to a bullet diameter.  I did this because I find it easy to measure groove diameter, but considerably more difficult to get a really accurate measure of the bore diameter.

I hope you find this useful.

Chris.
  
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Yellowhouse
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #5 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 1:57pm
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Y'all also need to make sure you enter in brass neck thickness into the equation.
  
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Mick B
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #6 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 7:57pm
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Thanks for the replies, I measured four thicknesses of the onion skin paper I got from BACO and that came to .007"
BACO list four PP moulds ranging in diameter from .390" to .394" which all weigh 420 gr and are all nearly the same length ( 1.395" to 1.400" ). One of my concerns is that with any of these bullets patched to bore diameter they are going to be very loose in the case mouth, which accepts a .408" greaser as a slip fit. I will only be using this ammunition for target shooting so I'm not worried about the bullet falling out, only it being that loose to start with. Would this cause alignment problems when seating the round.  I do have a Russ Weber 
breech seater that I can use if need be. Decisions, decisions, is it all worth the effort considering the fact that our club only shoots black powder and at no more than 200 meters ?.
As for the accuracy advantage, my greasers regularly shoot 1.25" groups, or better, on any reasonable day, can I expect much better with PP projectiles ?.
Mike.
  
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beltfed
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #7 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 9:47pm
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Roselle tracing paper at 0.00175 or so, and a 
DD bullet at 0.401 at base and stepping down to 0.395"
works well for me.
the other factory is the twist of your barrel. 
If 16 twist, go for a bullet about 1.325" long.
Mine is that length, and works very well out of my 40-65
16 twist rifle. Will even stabilize and shoot well out to long range.
Need to find my bullet PICs, and will post.
beltfed/arnie
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #8 - Oct 6th, 2016 at 10:47pm
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heed arnie's advice on twist, and use the breech seater if you don't and up getting a dual diameter mould.
freebore or not?
wait to look at arnie's pictures of his dual diameter bullets - a must for fixed ammo patched to bore in a gg chamber.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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beltfed
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #9 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 12:05am
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Number 1535 is my DDEPP(DoubleDiameterEllipticalPP) bullet for 16 twist 40s
1.325" long, about 373 gr in my 9+1 ww/lino alloy.
In my 40-65,  74.5 gr Swiss 1.5 under it gives 1400fps
over my Oehler 33.
Group at 100yds 
Number 1527 shows also my other 40 a 40-72
with my straight sided 0.395" dia x 1.55" Elliptical PP bullet
patched with the Roselle paper, it is a snug sliding fit into my
12 twist Douglas barrel. The long gg is my BFSS 460gr 1.55" long.
on right is my 40-65s,  the DDEPP, my Elliptical minigroove
that shoots extremely well(a 99-4/100 at 800yds)
and a Lyman Snover for comparison.
beltfed/arnie

  
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bruce moulds
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #10 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 7:10pm
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there is a basic rule for easy accuracy with bp cartridge rifles with regards bullets.
it is that you fully fill any space with bullet.
these dual diameter bullets do that, with and without freebore.
you just have to design the bullet for the case and chamber dimensions.
the reason is that when you light the fire, the bullet will fill those spaces before it starts to move.
the less it has to change shape, the less potential for inaccuracy.
the old pp chambers allowed this to be done with a parallel sided bullet, but modern groove diameter ones require a thicker bullet in the case. and of course freebore adds to this.
kal and brooks can both make such bullet moulds.
you will find that the better the fit, the harder the alloy useable.
a little recognized accuracy issue with cartridge rifles is the chamber to bore transition, particularly when prostituted to the modern 45 degree version.
the best way to avoid this is to breech seat so that no part of the bullet has anything to do with it.
fortunately with 40 and 45 cal, the best airgap is about 1/8", which puts the bullet just past the transition.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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bruce moulds
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #11 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 7:19pm
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arnie,
i should have got a 12 twist in my 40/72 instead of the 13 twist i have.
all is good in hindsight!
i thought  the 13 would shoot bullets of 1.55 long, and it does, but they have a slight wobble as reported by pit crew at 600 to 700 meters, then go stable again.
i had to go to a 1.5 bullet to avoid that, 3 bullet moulds later.
just goes to show that the accepted stability factor of 1.5 is a joke for long range work.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Mick B
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #12 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 8:16pm
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Bruce/Arnie
Thanks again for the answers to some of my questions, unless I have misunderstood the answers it would seem that breech seating the bullet would remove most of the variables.
Next to the subject of bullet diameter, The moulds listed in the BACO catalogue which I looked at ranged from .391 to .395 ( items # JIM391425, JIM392425,JIM394425, and finally JIM395400. ) of these four moulds only one was 1.325" long,  the other three were all between 1.395" and 1.400".  If what you say about length is important, then unfortunately the only one listed at the right length was a bit too large in diameter, if patched with the paper I have on hand, ie, .395" plus .007" of wrap equals .402", .002" over bore diameter ?. Would this make it difficult to seat using the Weber seater, and possibly damage the patch when doing so?.
Finally as a matter of interest I picked out 11 of my best targets shot over the last few months which ranged in group size from.655" to .995" for average of .899", so my question remains, how much better can I expect when using PP when shooting at 100 meters ?.
Mike.
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #13 - Oct 7th, 2016 at 10:18pm
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mick.
i can breech seat 0.401 with a palm seater, and suspect that 0.402 would be doable with a weber.
alloy hardness can effect ease of breech seating.
your other option is to get som seth cole 8 lb 55w mentioned above which will add 0.005, giving you 0.400 from a 0.395 bullet.
i just ordered 2 rolls, and it cost me aus$ 22.00.
0.400 bullet in a 0.400 bore will have a nice friction fit.
if you have freebore, you might do well to consider patched to groove in a parallel sided bullet.
it does not get much better than the groups you have shot, however you load ammo or what bullet you use.
where the pp bullet is superior is when there is air movement.
assuming that the pp and the gg bullets can group the same in a deadwind condition, and that they have a similar drag nose, the pp bullet will tend to have less width in its groups as wind deflection becomes an issue due to the drag of grease grooves.
this will translate into a few more points for score, or just plain smaller groups if that is the goal.
it could be worth contacting baco with a request that the shorter bullet be made at the diameter you require. nothing to lose.
keep safe,
bruce.
« Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2016 at 10:26pm by bruce moulds »  

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Re: PP diameter for a .40 cal bullet.
Reply #14 - Oct 8th, 2016 at 12:06pm
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Mike I've had good results breech seating bore diameter PP bullets in my .38-55's and .38-50.  in one of my .38-55's (a cpa with an RKS barrel with a tight bore ) the bullet I use is patched to about 0.002" above bore diameter and does seat nicely with the Weber breech seater.   

Chris.
  
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