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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22 (Read 7305 times)
Lefty38-55
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Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Sep 18th, 2016 at 2:57pm
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Some of you may recall having seen this on Gun Broker ~6-years ago or so, maybe more, where it was listed as having a gain twist barrel. As we believe, rimfire 22s from Pope were straight twist and this is a 22-Long with a 1-in-25” twist barrel by Harry Pope. I tried searching the ASSRA Forums for posts about this rifle, but couldn’t find anything.

It was previously advertised as allegedly having been the personal rifle of a champion shooter by the last name of ‘Delinger’ (not that of the similar, but other spelling of that infamous gangster) but I haven’t been able to find out anything in regards to its actual provenance. I got some Win factory info as provided by Bert Hartman but unfortunately that info was on my iPhone that has since crashed, so I need to contact Bert again. He provided me the date that the action left the Win polishing room and comparing that to the barrel date and we believe it was shipped to Pope and possibly even purchased by him to make into the custom Schuetzen rifle that it is.

I had kept in contact with the Seller and I got the opportunity to pick this up, as I’ve been looking for a high wall with double-set triggers. I have two others, both in 22 Long Rifle, including a take-down that someone sporterized from a Winder musket. I would have preferred the 22LR cartridge over the 'long', just due to ammo availability, especially in these current days of ‘hoarding’.

It came with a Unertl 10X scope and a nice set of sights by Mike Stevens that I have since put on my CPA in 38-55, where I can benefit from the rear Soule sight, versus putting it on what really amounts to being a gallery rimfire. After selling the scope (already have a few, thus more than I need) and accounting for the value of the used Stevens sights … and I ended up paying not too much over what I see non-Pope high wall shooters with dble-set triggers going for. Of course, Bert opines that due to the bastardizing (my word) by the previous owner/shooters … this has zero Winchester collector’s appeal … and value. But to me, having a Pope firearm makes it well worth it to … I just wish my Father was still here to see it and appreciate it, as he had met Mr. Pope at the ol’ Walnut Hill range once; where Pope was quite old and my Dad quite young (teen).

Best thing … mechanically she’s sound, the action is tight and the triggers are flawless in operation so she’s a ONE-HOLE GROUP shooter, at least at gallery ranges
« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2016 at 9:03pm by Lefty38-55 »  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #1 - Sep 18th, 2016 at 2:59pm
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More photos, 2 of 3
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #2 - Sep 18th, 2016 at 3:00pm
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Last Photo, 3 of 3
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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chawk
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #3 - Sep 18th, 2016 at 4:01pm
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I love it.  Even the short barrel is pretty cool.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #4 - Sep 18th, 2016 at 4:36pm
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To heck with the purists, and their factory original Winchester 1885's! I'd take your Pope High Wall over most originals any day! To me that's way cooler than another factory original gun!
  

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Lefty38-55
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #5 - Sep 19th, 2016 at 7:04am
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Thanks guys!

While I haven’t had it past 50-yards, but if the potential – using the 22 Long cartridge – indeed holds and carries out to 100-yards, then she appears to have the potential to be a winner again! 

Here are a few of my questions:

Barrel Length – Can anyone comment on the ‘short’ barrel of 21-3/4”? Has anyone seen this on other sub-22LR or other gallery guns? On any other Pope barrels? I have seen 1873 Maynard 22s wear heavy barrel profiles for about a 21" barrel length.

Muzzle End – I’ve read that Pope always left the barrel in the white. Now if the barrel was longer originally, then someone who had it cut could have just left it that way. Just curious … 

Rear sight dovetail – A few old timers at my Club believe that dovetail was probably for an adapter to fit a Wittek-Vaver rear sight. The barrel has two sets of standard Unertl-type spacing on it, where the rear most set appears to have been drilled first. Then the 1” dovetail added. Any comments here?

Lever fingers – I’ve seen other pictures of finger levers that apparently Pope added. Does this look like his work too??

Ammo Suggestions – I’ve been using Win CB-Long ‘match’ info, as that has been the only round I could 1st find and it like it, so I bought a case. Now with the frenzy going on, and I’ve yet to see any other round available. Offered – yes, available – no. Anyone have any suggestions?

So that’s it … would LOVE to hear any other comments!
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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marlinguy
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #6 - Sep 19th, 2016 at 10:18am
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The barrel length is certainly shorter than almost all .22 schuetzen rifles that I've seen, regardless of who built the barrel. It would have been a hindrance with iron sights, and I'd guess it might have been cut down later when it got scoped, where barrel length might not be a concern.
Barrel crowns were very common on most older maker's barrels, whether it was Pope or factory barrels. Blued crowns on older barrels tell me they were reblued, and whoever did the work didn't remove the bluing to keep the crown looking correct.
The lever adapter looks like someone tried to copy a Pope, but does not look like those I've seen on Pope guns, or those he offered.
Can't comment on the extra dovetail, but on a short barrel, that placement for a sight would further hinder the sighting radius. It may be another indication the barrel was once longer, IF that was for a rear sight.
  

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waterman
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #7 - Sep 19th, 2016 at 11:46am
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With that twist, I do not think it will stabilize 40 grain Long Rifle bullets.   

But you should try it with Shorts.  CCI Target Shorts are pretty accurate. 97 % as good as the good stuff from the gaslight days.  And the CCI HV copper plated stuff is surprisingly accurate.
  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #8 - Sep 19th, 2016 at 11:54am
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waterman wrote on Sep 19th, 2016 at 11:46am:
With that twist, I do not think it will stabilize 40 grain Long Rifle bullets.

You're right, it won't stabilize the heavier bullets - yes, I tried it (std velocity). The std loading in the 22 Longs is a 29-grn bullet and they shoot well, but have not determined if std or high velocity is a factor - yet.

Right now I am limited due to availability, but continue to try & scrounge a dozen rounds or so from friends so I can she what she likes!
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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oughtsix
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #9 - Sep 22nd, 2016 at 8:31am
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Quote:
Barrel Length – Can anyone comment on the ‘short’ barrel of 21-3/4”? Has anyone seen this on other sub-22LR or other gallery guns? On any other Pope barrels? I have seen 1873 Maynard 22s wear heavy barrel profiles for about a 21" barrel length


The Houston warehouse experiments claimed that 21 3/4" was the optimum length for a barrel.  I would guess someone read that article and tried it out on your Pope.   Hard to believe someone would  do that to a Pope.   Or maybe Harry was  experimenting.     Be interested to see it at 100 and 200yards. 

-06
  

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waterman
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #10 - Sep 23rd, 2016 at 12:40pm
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The OP said the rifle had scope blocks.  If a scope was used, barrel length & sight radius would not matter.  Maybe that is when (or if) it was shortened.

If I read the code correctly, HMP made the barrel in 1911.  This is the same time period that Dr. Mann was active.  The Bullet's Flight came out in 1909.  Maybe the original purchaser read that & decided on a shorter barrel.

The Dunn site shows Peters Longs loaded with semi-smokeless as available in 1911.  If match-grade longs were loaded, that was it.  I did not look at Remington, but it looks like Winchester Longs loaded with Lesmok did not appear until 1914.  At least that is what the box labels, etc. tell us.

I would still shoot it with CCI Target Shorts and call it good.
  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #11 - Sep 23rd, 2016 at 9:31pm
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waterman wrote on Sep 23rd, 2016 at 12:40pm:
I would still shoot it with CCI Target Shorts and call it good.

Thanks for the tip! ... now to find a case full ...
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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pronechamp
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #12 - Oct 22nd, 2016 at 2:07pm
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Had one of these, dated about 1909.  Shooting shorts indoors was popular as the long rifles were dirty and the ranges had little ventilation, so for 50' or 75', shorts were fine.

There was .22 short match ammo made for pistols in an Olympic Rapidfire event where very little recoil was desirable.  This event was changed and shorts no longer needed.

I would try the target talk website and see if you can find some of the .22 short match.  Shooting .22lr, if they will chamber, will produce some of the ugliest results imaginable at 50 yards.

Good luck.
  
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Re: Well-campaigned Win-Pope High Wall Schuetzen in 22
Reply #13 - Oct 23rd, 2016 at 2:38am
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I have shot many makes of Rapid Fire Shorts (thousands of them) in a Stevens-Pope, gain twist, 12X Unertl scope, from a home-made machine rest.  Eley, Fiocchi, Lapua, Remington; several types of each.  They are not as accurate in an old-time match rifle as ordinary CCI Target Shorts.  They were designed to make a blowback pistol function flawlessly, but only had to hit the X-ring in the Olympic target at 25 meters.  Each brand had their own bullet designs (plural) that appear to have changed over time.  All were very much more pointed than our match bullets.

Don't go to any great effort to get those Rapid Fire Shorts for your rifle.
  
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