Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Breech seating and black powder? (Read 9785 times)
Travelor
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 132
Location: Central Arkansas
Joined: May 5th, 2008
Breech seating and black powder?
Jul 5th, 2016 at 4:43pm
Print Post  
Just bought a 28-30 Stevens. Breech seating the bullet - how to load with black powder without causing a pressure bulge Ine the chamber throat?

Card wads?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #1 - Jul 5th, 2016 at 6:24pm
Print Post  
Quote:
Card wads?
or felt wads or a pinch of cotton
Harry Pope used to shoot the matches with one charged case and a felt wad punched from old felt hats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Travelor
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 132
Location: Central Arkansas
Joined: May 5th, 2008
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #2 - Jul 5th, 2016 at 7:06pm
Print Post  
Thanks John.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
beltfed
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1826
Location: Central Wi
Joined: Dec 20th, 2007
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #3 - Jul 5th, 2016 at 7:33pm
Print Post  
Also notable:
They filled the case to the mouth with the BP
and then placed the wad into the mouth to hold the powder in.
then, the bullet was BSted 1/16" ahead of the chamber.
beltfed/arnie
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Travelor
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 132
Location: Central Arkansas
Joined: May 5th, 2008
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #4 - Jul 5th, 2016 at 9:39pm
Print Post  
That was going to be my next question.

Thanks

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #5 - Jul 5th, 2016 at 10:06pm
Print Post  
Be sure to make a small bell on the mouth of the case.  Purpose?  After the bullet has been breech seated - the mouth of the case will cover the bullet base
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bruce moulds
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 290
Location: the antipodes
Joined: Mar 14th, 2015
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #6 - Jul 6th, 2016 at 5:04pm
Print Post  
droptube the case full of powder such that the wad is level with the top of the neck.
ldpe or card wads are the best because with the airgap you lose some bumpup, and a harder wad will maximize this.
start shooting groups with the bullet base touching the wad, and incrementally  breech seat further until groups tighten.
38/55 will often shoot best at about 1/16 airgap, and 40 and 45 cal about 1/8".
there are no hard and fast rules about airgaps, you have to find what works in your gun and calibre, but it will be obvious when you find it.
good on you for having a go.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

ventum est amicus meus
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Travelor
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 132
Location: Central Arkansas
Joined: May 5th, 2008
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #7 - Jul 7th, 2016 at 6:23am
Print Post  
Bruce, what powder are your referring to in the above post?

If black, would not the gap cause a ring?

I'm a 68 year old novice when it comes to breach seating.

My cartridge in question is a 28-30-120 Stevens seen in the trade/for sale section that I just bought and haven't got yet.

Thanks,
George
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #8 - Jul 7th, 2016 at 1:20pm
Print Post  
Congratulations on your purchase it should provide you several years of enjoyment.

JLouis
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bruce moulds
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 290
Location: the antipodes
Joined: Mar 14th, 2015
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #9 - Jul 7th, 2016 at 5:04pm
Print Post  
George,
the gap is used to tune the load.
it has been used "forever". I believe ned Roberts talks about it in one of his books.
you can ring a barrel if the gap gets too big, but 1/8" or less is not an issue.
this technique works with both groove diameter greasers and bore diameter pp bullets.
my own experience has been with the 45/2.4"case and the 40/72, but my scheutzen friends do it with 38/55 and 32/40
the first 3 cases hold 100 gns, 84 gns, and 60 gns.of 1f or 1.5f swiss loaded this way (depending on the batch)
when you hit an accuracy node, the accuracy is scary.
scheutzen shooters do it as a matter of course, but people (choose to?) forget that creedmoor shooters also did it.
to capitalize on the accuracy potential of breech seating you will need to wipe, and wipe thoroughly, in order to have exactly the same barrel condition for each shot.
cannot advise which grade of powder for your28/30, but someone might have experience here or have read ned Roberts.
annealing your brass necks can also be helpful, as you will be guaranteed a consistent gas seal.
a most interesting project you are embarking on.
enjoy it.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

ventum est amicus meus
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1299
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #10 - Jul 7th, 2016 at 10:10pm
Print Post  
George
There has been good info offered on this thread.
Here are some other ideas you might consider.
- Instead of leaving a 1/16th inch (approximate) void between case mouth and bullet base, try filling that void with a 1/16th inch felt wad. It seems to reduce the number of flyers in my groups (your results may vary).
- Swiss is good powder but also consider Olde Eynsford 1.5. It burns a little cleaner than Swiss plus delivers a bit more energy.
- Consider a duplex load. For your 28-30, about 3.0 grains of IMR 4227 with the remainder of the case full of either Swiss 1.5 or Olde Eynsford should produce good accuracy and burn cleaner than straight black (important given that small 28 cal hole through your barrel).
- Use a drop tube to load black powder in cartridge case and a try a primer pocket wad of newspaper.
- Whether straight black or duplex, fill the cartridge case to the mouth and press an over powder wad in the case until flush with mouth. This will give some powder compression. Try card wads of about .060 and .030 to see which gives best accuracy.
- Another presented the importance of fouling mitigation, heed that advice.
The included illustration might make it easier to understand my description.
If your rifle is on a Stevens 44 action, you probably should not use duplex loads.
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
Travelor
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 132
Location: Central Arkansas
Joined: May 5th, 2008
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #11 - Jul 8th, 2016 at 7:47am
Print Post  
The great advice just keeps coming to help me.

Here is the gun and accessories in question - (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Thanks,

George
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bruce moulds
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 290
Location: the antipodes
Joined: Mar 14th, 2015
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #12 - Jul 8th, 2016 at 5:10pm
Print Post  
a good post by randy.
the only comment I would make is that you need to be very careful of case necks and compression dies.
a possible way to avoid this issue would be to droptube to a level 0.030 below the case mouth, compress 0.030 without a wad, leaving a 0.060 void, into which a 0.060 wad can then be placed.
the suggestion of a wad under the primer is an excellent one.
another paper well suited to this is computer printer paper.
pistol primers are often worth trying, federal being the best for me for some reason or other.
getting a load by breech seating is a bit of effort, but the rewards are well worth it in terms of interest and satisfaction.
I would say good luck, but it is not about luck, rather doing the yards. the journey is what it is all about.
keep safe, 
bruce.
  

ventum est amicus meus
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LES38
Ex Member


Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #13 - Jul 9th, 2016 at 9:18am
Print Post  
George (Travelor) is both a long-time shooting buddy and personal friend of mine, and I'm really looking forward to seeing and shooting his new/old Stevens.  Until he bought it, I'd never heard of breech seating (or this cartridge, for that matter), even though I've been a shooter for many years.  This thread has been a real eye-opener for me, and now I at least have a good idea of what it is.  But I still have one question--what is the purpose of a primer wad, and how does it work?
« Last Edit: Jul 9th, 2016 at 9:25am by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
RSW
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1299
Location: Arizona
Joined: Sep 8th, 2006
Re: Breech seating and black powder?
Reply #14 - Jul 9th, 2016 at 11:12am
Print Post  
LES38
Theories differ but in essence, it prevents small kernels of powder from getting through the flash hole and resting against the primer. This might happen on some cartridges but not others and could cause inconsistent powder ignition.
Others claim it slightly lessens primer brisance (flash intensity) as most of today's primers give more flash than is needed to ignite black powder. 
Illustration shows how to seat primer pocket wad.
  

Randy W
ASSRA 10211  -  ISSA 125
There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint