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Military Steyr Martini/unidentified chambering (Read 4746 times)

John in PA Oldtimer Offline Posts: 590 Location: Hollidaysburg, PA Joined: Nov 3^rd, 2009	Military Steyr Martini/unidentified chambering Jun 7^th, 2016 at 6:04pm	Print Post
	Note: thread title changed to better reflect the mysterious nature of the search for the cartridge that manufacturer intended for this rifle) Anyone playing with the British No. 2 Musket cartridge? (Also known as the Westley Richards No. 2 Musket or the .500-450) May be identical or close to the Romanian 11.43X59R depending on what source I look at. Supposedly can be formed from .50-90 Sharps, and handles most .45-70 bullets well. I'm poised to tinker with this one, the black powder version, not the Nitro Express.
	« Last Edit: Jun 18^th, 2016 at 9:05am by John in PA »
	John Wells Hollidaysburg, PA Peabody and Peabody-Martini's Wanted!
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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4473 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: British No. 2 Musket cartridge (AKA WR .500-450) Reply #1 - Jun 8^th, 2016 at 12:50am	Print Post
	MartiniBelgian will pipe in here.


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1734 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: British No. 2 Musket cartridge (AKA WR .500-450) Reply #2 - Jun 9^th, 2016 at 2:09am	Print Post
	Probably my favourite BP cartridge indeed - that's what I shoot both in match and military rifle competition. Case forming can be from 50-90 or Brit 500-based NE brass (500/465,...); Uses standard .458 bullets and can be loaded like any normal BP cartridge: Chuck in powder, place overpowder wad (not below the neck of course), seat bullet and shoot. And it shoots quite well.... Maybe one of the easiest rounds I worked with. Although the current lot of Swiss Fg is posing me some problems re. fouling management in match rifle. Fg to 1 1/2Fg is probably the best powder to use, not too fine a granulation: after all, you're loading between 80 and 90 grains of the stuff. And yes, the Roumanian cartridge is just about a clone of the round. I shoot a Steyr-Martini for military rifle matches. What rifle do you have?


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John in PA Oldtimer Offline Posts: 590 Location: Hollidaysburg, PA Joined: Nov 3^rd, 2009	Re: British No. 2 Musket cartridge (AKA WR .500-450) Reply #3 - Jun 13^th, 2016 at 8:49pm	Print Post
	A Steyr Martini in supposed 98% original condition should be on the way to me as of this writing. I'll do a chamber cast first thing. Thanks for the tips!

	John Wells Hollidaysburg, PA Peabody and Peabody-Martini's Wanted!
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jarmann Participating Member Offline Posts: 38 Joined: Apr 7^th, 2014	Re: British No. 2 Musket cartridge (AKA WR .500-450) Reply #4 - Jun 14^th, 2016 at 6:57am	Print Post
	make my cases from 50/90 starline, 405 gn bullet sized .458 on 25gn N110 ,dies from CH4d musket no2, POA 20cm under target ,give me nice groups at 100 m (to me of course ) also loaded with 500gn bullet same data shoot the 1882 non roumanian issue rifle just for fun greetings from flanders jarmann


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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1734 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: British No. 2 Musket cartridge (AKA WR .500-450) Reply #5 - Jun 14^th, 2016 at 11:18am	Print Post
	These shoot well with PP bullets and a lube cookie - just make sure these are seated in the case neck. I use a bushing necksizer die to size the necks, and seat the bullet with neck tension well out, just not touching the rifling. Shoots well with blowtubing only, provided your barrel isn't too rough. I Usually take a 6 o'clock aim and set the sight 100m higher than the distance - that should get you pretty close. FWIW, that rear sight is pretty nifty, goes out to 1400m with the extension inside the ladder.


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4473 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: British No. 2 Musket cartridge (AKA WR .500-450) Reply #6 - Jun 14^th, 2016 at 12:14pm	Print Post
	Mine was/is a Westley Richards "Improved" Martini with Henry rifling. Played with it 40 years ago for a while with IIRC taped 348 Win brass but had it converted to a muzzleloader with a plugged chamber to bore diameter and taking a 209 primer. Were there that many inline muzzleloaders 40 plus years ago? Anyway shot Lee target minis in it and used it to take 2 deer. Cut a hole like a wadcutter through both lungs and heart and kept going. Has military type sights but with platinum line inserts and has a nice safety that blocks the trigger.


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John in PA Oldtimer Offline Posts: 590 Location: Hollidaysburg, PA Joined: Nov 3^rd, 2009	Re: British No. 2 Musket cartridge (AKA WR .500-450) Reply #7 - Jun 17^th, 2016 at 11:21am	Print Post
	Chamber cast completed, and, apparently, it isn't a #2 Musket. In fact, I can't figure out what it is!! (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) Left are fired and unfired .43 Mauser. Right .43 Spanish Chamber dimensions as follows: Rim .663" Head .532" Shoulder diameter .518" Length from breechface to start of shoulder approx 1.6" Neck diameter .473 Major and minor diameters of Henry rifling just ahead of chamber (odd number of grooves).468"/.459" (This does not reflect true bore size as a .451 swaged round ball will not quite fit the bore, but a .446 bullet will essentially drop through, so minor bore diameter is probably right around .450") Most dimensions would work well for the #2 Musket except the head diameter, which is too small by .050" !! The rim of a .50-90 fits the rim cut-out, but no way otherwise. A fireformed case from a 71/84 Mauser fits chambers nicely, but shoulder is too far back. Original .43 Spanish chambers nicely and comes closer to shoulder dimensions, but head and rim are still a bit small, and overall length appears too short. Can't locate anything in COTW that comes close enough to be a strong suspect. Neck diameter of the chamber would seem to indicate a bullet diameter below .450". say .446" or less?

	John Wells Hollidaysburg, PA Peabody and Peabody-Martini's Wanted!
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corerftech Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 263 Location: Memphis, TN Joined: Mar 3^rd, 2014	Re: Military Steyr Martini/unidentified chambering Reply #8 - Jun 21^st, 2016 at 7:27pm	Print Post
	Sounds like a barrel I could have worked on, but didn't. In an attempt to make a barrel with odd chamber easy to load for, I am always willing and do.... Cut a new rim recess and also open the case head to suit a better donor cartridge. For instance, buffalo arms has a cartridge in basic form drawn from full length (raw) 348 win. The case head is swagged to 43 Spanish diameter. It is very very long and 43 Spanish chambers typically have nearly endless necks of highly variable lengths. So if you take said brass and put through a 43S die, you come up with a 2 inch Lon 43S. Rim diameter is too big for the donor to fit. Lathe open the recess to fit new donor, relieve the extractor, hybrid complete. A 43 Spanish on 348 win brass with "application specific" length of neck. You make a shooter on the cheap! See if that line of thinking applies to this rifle! Mike


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John in PA Oldtimer Offline Posts: 590 Location: Hollidaysburg, PA Joined: Nov 3^rd, 2009	Re: Military Steyr Martini/unidentified chambering Reply #9 - Jun 29^th, 2016 at 4:50pm	Print Post
	Already got it cooking. See shooting report here (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)

	John Wells Hollidaysburg, PA Peabody and Peabody-Martini's Wanted!
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