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win high wall question as to era? (Read 6203 times)

knifemaker Participating Member Offline Posts: 11 Joined: May 15^th, 2016	win high wall question as to era? Jun 1^st, 2016 at 5:49pm	Print Post
	Hi, I have a deal on a win. high wall, 40-70. The rifle is immaculate , with custom stock and all the trimmings even some engraving on the receiver. My question is that there is no serial # on the tang ,or anywhere on the receiver that I can find, Is there a possibility that win . produced some of theses guns with no ser#at a certain time, or is it possible that the tang was replaced later with no markings? The rifle is in primo condition and looks to be of a more recent time, and not an earlier vnitage. can any one shed any light on it? thanks


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2917 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #1 - Jun 1^st, 2016 at 5:56pm	Print Post
	Pictures. Can you post some pictures? Is it a flat-spring or coil-spring action?

	Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #2 - Jun 1^st, 2016 at 7:10pm	Print Post
	knifemaker wrote on Jun 1^st, 2016 at 5:49pm: Is there a possibility that win . produced some of theses guns with no ser#at a certain time... No, excepting perhaps experimental models. Marking ser. nos. on an easily removable part of the gun was not one of Winchester's most farsighted ideas.


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knifemaker Participating Member Offline Posts: 11 Joined: May 15^th, 2016	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #3 - Jun 1^st, 2016 at 9:08pm	Print Post
	No unfortunately i don,nt have the rife now for pic., but i believe it,s a coil spring.


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2917 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #4 - Jun 1^st, 2016 at 9:11pm	Print Post
	Coil-spring would be 1908, or later. Not aware of any that did not have the S/N on the tang. You could call the Cody Firearms Museum and ask. They might be able to enlighten you (us).

	Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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chawk Full Member Offline Posts: 208 Location: Virginia Joined: Jan 29^th, 2014	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #5 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 6:47am	Print Post
	They are all known to have serial numbers. It is not uncommon to see a custom High Wall with no serial number because the gunsmith ground it off during the rebuilding/refinishing. You see it all the time on on custom pistol grip rifles. The earlier "cursive" style serial numbers are generally not stamped as deeply as the later "blocky" stlye serial numbers and are especially vulnerable to fading due to wear, pitting, polishing, refinishing, etc..


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Crown-C Senior Forum Member Online Posts: 493 Location: St. Marys Kansas Joined: Apr 6^th, 2009	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #6 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 8:45am	Print Post
	Ditto on Chawks reply. Many straight grip hi walls were converted to pistol grip custom rifles and the serial numbers were polished off. I have one of those. Richard

	Richard Crown-C Ranch in the Flinthills NRA Life Member ASSRA Member # 10366 Member & Founders Society, Cody Firearms Museum Veteran
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kkid66 Full Member Offline Posts: 186 Location: central tx Joined: Jun 4^th, 2014	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #7 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 8:52am	Print Post
	Winchester put ser # on the barrel amd lower tang, both easily changed and leaving no number if a custom lower tang is installed.


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #8 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 10:30am	Print Post
	kkid66 wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 8:52am: Winchester put ser # on the barrel amd lower tang, both easily changed and leaving no number if a custom lower tang is installed. Actually, Winchester barrels were NOT numbered, making life much easier for barrel switchers.


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knifemaker Participating Member Offline Posts: 11 Joined: May 15^th, 2016	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #9 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 11:19am	Print Post
	Thanks I really appreciate everyones inputes, and it sure looks like the rifle was redone by a gunsmith and the the ser. # on the tang were removed in the restoration process. This is apparately not uncommon, and I would not be scared away from buying it now. Knowing that it has a coil spring action at least I know it was made after 1908, without ser # can,t tell what year it was made. wondered if there was another way to find out its vintage plus or minus 20 years or so?


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #10 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 12:17pm	Print Post
	knifemaker wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 11:19am: ...wondered if there was another way to find out its vintage plus or minus 20 years or so? Production ended 1920, so there's only a 12 yr window for production.


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kkid66 Full Member Offline Posts: 186 Location: central tx Joined: Jun 4^th, 2014	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #11 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 12:23pm	Print Post
	Redsetter you are correct about no ser# on the bbl. The original bbl should have the factory Winchester stamping where a bbl and lower tang change may leave the gun as mfg unknown. The upper tang may have no markings.
	« Last Edit: Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 12:46pm by kkid66 »

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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16044 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #12 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 1:21pm	Print Post
	Although Winchester only put the serial number on the lower tang, they did put assembly or work order numbers on the sides of the upper and lower tangs. And with special features they often put other letters on the side of the tang to note the options. If the seller is asking a big price tag, I'd want to pull the buttstock and compare whatever marks are on the left side of the upper and lower tangs, just to see what might be there. If the seller is selling it at a price that is cheap enough, then it really isn't important. You get what you see and nothing promised.

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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #13 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 1:26pm	Print Post
	kkid66 wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 12:23pm: ...The original bbl should have the factory Winchester stamping... Unless of course it's a fake barrel with a fake roll-mark, such as those Sonny France once peddled. Fortunately for collectors, his die cutter was so stupid, incredibly, as to miss-spell "Manufacturing," but there are others doing the same thing who were more careful.


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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: win high wall question as to era? Reply #14 - Jun 2^nd, 2016 at 2:04pm	Print Post
	Winchester sold replacement tangs for repair that were not marked with a serial number. The individual doing the replacement was supposed to transfer the original serial number onto the replacement tang before delivering the rifle to the customer. Winchester also sold properly roll-marked replacement barrels, which had an additional stamping that was visible after installation, consisting of a P within the same size oval that contained the Winchester Proof mark. I've seen hand stamps cut with the Winchester Proof mark for sale at gun shows, and roll dies too, not too many years ago.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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