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Shanghai Jack
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Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
May 30th, 2016 at 7:20pm
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I picked up a Martini really cheap probably because it's a really strange cartridge.  I did a chamber cast and its a rimmed 25 caliber based on a necked down 30-40 Krag Jorgenson.  The closest I can come to it in my references is a .25 Krag short listed in the Handloader's Guide to Cartridge Conversions but this one has a case length of only 2.00 inches as opposed to a case length of 2.3 inches for the book version.  Obviously the shoulder has been bumped back significantly as well.  The book also states that there are more  than one variation of the 25 Krag Short.   The seller is looking for a set of his father's dies for the rifle, but while I'm puzzling about how to form the brass is there anyone out there who has any experience with this cartridge or who would recommend a starting load.  Don't even know the case capacity yet since I' ve not tried forming any brass yet.
  
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Marlene
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #1 - May 31st, 2016 at 1:17am
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sounds close to 250 Savage with a rim?
  
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #2 - May 31st, 2016 at 6:24am
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Yes, the 250-3000 looks close with the exception of the rim as you noted.  The trim to length is close.  Length to shoulder is only about a tenth off as well and that could be adjusted.  Shoulder length and angle are significantly different though but I guess that would be taken care of by fire-forming.
  
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boats
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #3 - May 31st, 2016 at 6:50am
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I form my 25 Krag with standard dies from CH4D, set to size the neck only.  They could bump the shoulder, I just don't need to.   308 is not far off 30/40 shape. 

7mm08, 260 Remington, 25/08.  Then use one of CH"s next sizers for final and all loading after fire forming. Shoulder takes care of itself on fire forming . Yours is shorter and the stock dies may need cutting off from the bottom.  Dave has done that for me in other calibers  for small extra charge.

Mail a chamber cast to Dave at CH he will set you up .

Boats.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #4 - May 31st, 2016 at 11:19am
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I had, or may still have somewhere, a box of 20 cases marked 25 short Krag or else it was marked 25 Krag and the cases were short. Been a long time since I've seen them. I may know where to look...
  
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boats
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #5 - May 31st, 2016 at 1:17pm
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If I sift through my shelves have a fair amount of data on the various 25 Krag's in articles and books, will see what I can find for the short Krag. Might take a few days. Going out of town early tomorrow back on Friday

Will scan and send to you if I can, PM me with your email address, 

Boats
  
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Marlene
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #6 - May 31st, 2016 at 1:34pm
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Shanghai Jack wrote on May 31st, 2016 at 6:24am:
Yes, the 250-3000 looks close with the exception of the rim as you noted.  The trim to length is close.  Length to shoulder is only about a tenth off as well and that could be adjusted.  Shoulder length and angle are significantly different though but I guess that would be taken care of by fire-forming. 


I meant more for starting data than case forming. If you feel like you need an intermediate forming die from Krag to your short .25 cartridge, I'd bet a .308 Winchester die would be about perfect.
  
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boats
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #7 - May 31st, 2016 at 3:05pm
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I found it best to go through a 7mm die before dropping to .25.  Could be my  brass or the fact I already had a 7mm08 die no reason not to use it, could save hard to find brass.

Had a quick look at my bookshelf, Ackley claimed the 25 Short as one of his cartridges and has some data. No way I would use Ackley data except as a point of reference for too hot!!

Rest of information I may have is in old Handloader magazines. Not indexed so could take some time.

If I was loading that cartridge would get it's case volume then look for modest data for other 25's like 25/35 250/3000 & 257 Roberts. Match up case capacity with one of the known cartridges and start on the very low side working up. Guessing only 25/35 data would be a good safe start

Ackley claimed it could be loaded to slightly higher velocity than 257 Roberts improved. That's a right fast cartridge.

Boats
  
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Marlene
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #8 - May 31st, 2016 at 6:07pm
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boats wrote on May 31st, 2016 at 3:05pm:
No way I would use Ackley data except as a point of reference for too hot!!


I chuckled
  
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #9 - May 31st, 2016 at 6:53pm
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Thanks all - contacted Dave today. He seemed interested in the cartridge.  Shipping a chamber cast to him tomorrow.

Read the Ackley reference.  Case is significantly shorter. 

Sounds like the 7mm and the 308 dies make sense.  

Thanks for all the info.  Will get some pics when I get something working on the brass side. 
  
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #10 - May 31st, 2016 at 6:57pm
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Marlene wrote on May 31st, 2016 at 1:34pm:
Shanghai Jack wrote on May 31st, 2016 at 6:24am:
Yes, the 250-3000 looks close with the exception of the rim as you noted.  The trim to length is close.  Length to shoulder is only about a tenth off as well and that could be adjusted.  Shoulder length and angle are significantly different though but I guess that would be taken care of by fire-forming. 


I meant more for starting data than case forming. If you feel like you need an intermediate forming die from Krag to your short .25 cartridge, I'd bet a .308 Winchester die would be about perfect.


Got you, I was just comparing the general dimensions of the 250/3000.  The dimensions of my chamber cast are actually closer to the 250/3000 than they are to the Krag Short listed in the cartridge conversion guide. 
  
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #11 - May 31st, 2016 at 6:59pm
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oneatatime wrote on May 31st, 2016 at 11:19am:
I had, or may still have somewhere, a box of 20 cases marked 25 short Krag or else it was marked 25 Krag and the cases were short. Been a long time since I've seen them. I may know where to look...


Be interesting in seeing one
  
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dave_j
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #12 - Jun 1st, 2016 at 3:00am
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sounds like a version of a short krag cartridge similar to the Pfeifer series    i have experience with a 22 Pfeifer krag back about 1971. too many split cases.    at the time i was told there were several calibers based on the 2" case .
best of the bunch imho was the 6mm
good luck!
  
ah heck  AA#9,4227,300MP, as long as it goes bang
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #13 - Jun 1st, 2016 at 6:37am
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Very interesting - don't see a lot on line about the Pfeifer series. Does give me another thing to start researching.
  
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oneatatime
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Re: Need some Help - 25 Krag Super Short???
Reply #14 - Jun 7th, 2016 at 9:09pm
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I found the brass in the box marked 25 Short Krag but it measures about 2.16 so in between 25 Krag and 25 Super Short;-)
  
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