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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly? (Read 15991 times)
chawk
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #15 - May 17th, 2016 at 6:28am
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Not to get too off topic but; Does anyone use volumetric 'scoops' such as the lee powder measures?  If so, how consistent are they compared to those super fancy scales or powder throwers?  I am able to reload perfectly adequate handgun loads with those but I have never used it to try and make accurate rifle loads.
  
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Skalkaho
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #16 - May 17th, 2016 at 8:50am
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I used to make custom "scoops", then use the trickler. Works well. The Harrells are the way to go, except for 47-59..Redding or Belding Mull. Use A Qhause "Dial O Grain" best out there. Have to weigh 300MP just to fine a powder.For Black powder a polished out Lyman 55, all settings straight so there are no steps in hopper, great accuracy...then my Dillon 550 to finish out, and crank em out.......
  

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40_Rod
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #17 - May 17th, 2016 at 9:07am
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Most shooters don’t take the time to learn how to use their powder measure accurately. They take it out of the box fill it full of powder and off they go. What powder you are using and how you handle your measure has a lot to do with how accurate the drop will be. First what powder are you using, stick powders will meter differently than ball powders. This is why so many have trouble metering 4759 its shape doesn’t let it settle uniformly in small drops. The larger the drop the more room in the chamber the powder has to settle. Some measures were just never designed with tight enough tolerances to handle ball powders. Ever worked your handle and felt that crunchy feel? Time to buy a new measure that was designed for ball. 
When you get a new measure spend some time with it to find out how it wants to be used. You will find that after you refine your technique you should be able to keep your SD’s around 10 F.P.S.

40 Rod
  
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John Boy
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #18 - May 17th, 2016 at 10:51am
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Rod - An excellent post & agree with it 100% ...
I have & use for different powder types after getting 'the feel for each measure' - a Lee Perfect Powder measure - Belding & Mull - OHause - Lyman #5 and Lyman #55 measures. Example, with the Lyman #5 - I can crank the handle all week long and drop exactly 4.5gr of Swiss Null-B into my 22LR cases

Now, the subject of powder density variations for different lots comes into consideration when measuring by weight.  If measured correctly, say 15.0gr may or may not weigh the same between different lots.

What I was trying to get a feel for in the original post do folks drop exactly or not the powder charge that they record on the case of reloads.  I don't as stated for both smokeless and black powder.  And if measured with a chronograph, if the SD is about 15 or less, have concluded every reload with the same exact powder drop doesn't matter
  
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JLouis
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #19 - May 17th, 2016 at 11:15am
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CF after re-reading my post it did not quite come out in the positive manner it was intended to so I simply removed it and I apologize if it was taken wrongly.

JLouis
  

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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #20 - May 17th, 2016 at 11:41am
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Well, I removed my latest one as well. Have a good week. Pat
  
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JLouis
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #21 - May 17th, 2016 at 1:17pm
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John I have noticed that my weights will vary slightly during the year when being dropped from my Harrel Schuetzen measure, same lot of powder and same volume setting. Could this be attributed to moisture gained or lost as I really cannot say for sure and would only assume so. I have also noticed that if I chase the weight my results on the target seem to change more than if I just maintain the same amount of volume. You picked a very interesting subject in regards to maintaining the same velocity from one outing to the next and thus the same degree of accuracy. It is also not untypical to have to make a small change to the powder charge for every ten degrees in temperature change for a load to stay in tune and to continue to provide the least amount of vertical dispersion. Would you think it is the burn rate that is changing or possibly the weight of the charge due to moisture being either gained or lost of which would also affect the volumne. It is all somewhat of a mystery to me but I do know the jacketed benchrest shooters thpicaly make small adjustments after every relay and the reason for thier reloading at the matches. I would tend to think that if one loads by either weight or volume if match shooting either or would just be simply be a good place to start out the day and then adjusted as required. If shooting pre-charged cases or fixed the best approach might be to use the average over the long run either by exact weight or volume and to run with it and hope for the best. When I was shooting my 32Miller Short with pre-charged cases I never seemed to get the load quite right for the day and so I got rid of it and went back to the 32-40 of which is quite abit more forgiving and using one case so I could adjust the powder as the changes in the verticle dispersion were occuring.

I hope this isn't taking it off topic but I think it is all relevant to your original question as I understood it?
JLouis
  

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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #22 - May 17th, 2016 at 2:20pm
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Thank you Pat no ill will was intended and I hope your week also goes extremely well.

My way with words generally perceive something other than what I am actually trying to share in goodwill and more times than not come out completely ass backwards than was intended. It is something I continually struggle with it and trying to correct with the help of a friend who takes the time to point it out to me.

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John Boy
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #23 - May 17th, 2016 at 3:28pm
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Quote:
Could this be attributed to moisture gained or lost as I really cannot say for sure and would only assume so.

John, my presumption is that this is true.   
I have never weighed a given sample of smokeless fresh from an unopened container - left the cap off and then periodically took additional weighings to determine weight loss or gain. Plus the average moisture in newly produced smokeless is a subject I've never read about

Blackpowder - different story.  The drying process of Swiss powder at the plant reduces the moisture in the powder to 0.5% - then packaged.  Add BP is hygroscopic.  Open the container and how much additional moisture is absorbed = ?  But it happens.  This will impact the density of the powder grains and change the volumetric measure of BP weight when scale weighed
  
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #24 - May 17th, 2016 at 6:24pm
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I used to. Started shooting a lot of matches (not benchrest) and it became too time consuming. Got the RCBS micrometer insert (small) for my measure and started working up loads using the average weight available for any setting. Now it's a breeze. Set the micrometer for the load I want, settle the powder in the measure, drop 10 or 20 back in the hopper to normalize, and off I go. For BPCR I do drop then trickle on a scale just because I'm not satisfied with the consistency of the Lyman 55.
  
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #25 - May 17th, 2016 at 6:53pm
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Some plastics do allow moisture to move through the wall of the container. 
Some who have used brush-on polishing compounds have removed the cap from a properly sealed container to discover that the polishing media has dried out while sitting on the shelf.
  

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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #26 - May 18th, 2016 at 12:16am
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While slightly off topic....
I have some red dot that came out of an estate. Storeed in a cool dark and not damp basement here in central ca.  Sealed in small paint can tins. Probably 50 years old. Still has no deteriorating smell. Shoots fine. It weighs significantly less than my new keg weighs. Just a point of interest. The powder has lost significant moisture, but shoots just fine. I haven't chronographed any of the loads for comparison but my shoulder tells me volumetricly they produce similar recoil. Not very scientific,  but my observations 
Jerry
  
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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #27 - May 18th, 2016 at 8:49am
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John
I have noticed that my charge has to be adjusted slightly for best results. This is a subtle thing sometimes I will shoot 5 or 6 groups before deciding to add a click of powder. Then I shoot 2 or 3 more to see if it helps, sometimes it’s just me. Of coarse powder has to be adjusted for different lots of the same powder every once in a while they will shoot the same but usually I will have to add or subtract a click to my base load to get best results. For example the newest lot of Enforcer required a 1-click addition to get the same group size average than I got with the old 4100.

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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #28 - May 18th, 2016 at 6:45pm
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John M my findings as well and I would urge those who put in 3 clicks at time to make a small
adjustment on the Harrel Schuetzen measure typicaly = to 1/10 gr. when using ball powders trying going up or down 1 click at a time from their starting load. I would also urge them to do the same as you and to couple of groups on thier sighter to confirm the load before moving onto thier score target. By doing so it usually adds up to points gained instead of points lost and it is also a big confidence booster by now knowing rifle is indeed shooting up to the best of its ability prior to going to your record target. I will usually start shooting a 5 shot group or more holding on the number 16 at twelve clock on the ASSRA small target, make any adjustments if required and do the same holding on the number 16 at 6 o'clock. If all seems well I go to the 25 ring and when satisfied all is still well I will then go to my record target. There will be times that I will have 20+ shots on my sighter target shooting the number 16 at 9&3 as well if need be and at other times only a couple of groups will be all that is needed. Today I had to make one slight adjustment, one click up after the temperture started to increase the verticle and then all was well again. Below are the two practice Targets from this mornings outing T-2 on the right had one click up added based on the sighter prior to shooting it and one can see that the verticle was pretty well maintained on both targets. Rifle used was my FBW's in the traditional design 28-35SS. 

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Re: Be Honest - Do You Charge Smokeless Exactly?
Reply #29 - May 18th, 2016 at 7:48pm
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No argument with your methodology John. The results are there for the world to see. Beyond World Class. Nice to say the least.
  

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