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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Long range / Heavier bullets ? (Read 7616 times)
cuslog
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Long range / Heavier bullets ?
May 4th, 2016 at 4:07pm
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I'm new to this black powder stuff never shot black before - going to try a BPCR shoot at Kamloops BC. in a few weeks.
45-70 Highwall clone, RKS gain twist barrel, 36 X 20 @ 28".
Just got it shooting with smokeless. Commercial cast 405 gr. flat nose over 13.5 gr. Unique shoots nicely @ 100 yds ( ~ 1", 5 shot group) with no real load development (tang sight).
At what point should I be looking at a 500+ grain bullet (or do I really need it?).
I see that BPCR is out to 500M and some other match is out to 8 and 900 yds.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #1 - May 4th, 2016 at 4:29pm
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It's great to hear that you are coming to the Kamloops match.  It is a pile of fun.

With heavier bullets they'll drift a little less in the wind which can be useful.  When I used my .45-70 for silhouette I was happy with the Buffalo Arms 459535 money bullet.  You will start to gain significant advantage at the turkey and ram lines.  The turkey targets are pesky.  If your off on the wind reading a little bit you'll have a lot of close misses Smiley.  A higher BC bullet will give you a greater margin of error.

If you want to see what sort of difference, play around with the free JBM Ballistics software. The money bullet has a BC of .5 or a little more.  I don't know about a flat nosed 405gr bullet, but I'm pretty sure it'll be well under 0.4.

Let me know if you have any questions about the Kamloops shoot.  I'd be glad to help.

Chris.
  
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boats
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #2 - May 4th, 2016 at 4:33pm
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It depends,

Long heavy bullet is better for Wind Deflection but,

I shot a Trapdoor some at 1000 yards with a 405 Grain bullet. It does drift more but a Trapdoor from X Sticks is brutal to shoot due stock shape. I gained in less recoil more than I lost in wind ablity.

Point is you can use a 405 it's just not going to do quite as well as a 500 gr bullet. Start changing your bullet with a few weeks to go before the match is not a path to success. I say use it and see, while looking at other rifles performance with heavy bullets

The Unique is another issue. I use a lot of it in Pistol Caliber Lever actions to 100 yards.  Some guys at our monthly offhand 200 yard Ram Bash use Unique. But most of us would say get long distance Unique is going to give more vertical stringing than another powder. Black Powder is going to give the best results. 

Others may have other opinions

Boats
  
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derrickman
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #3 - May 4th, 2016 at 4:40pm
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If you're going to shoot silhouette BPCR then you should move on up to the 500+ grs. My best (most accurate) bullet in the 45-70 weighed 560 grs. Load with black powder; Swiss, Kik, Goex. Determine your OACL when the bullet engages the lands, this is generally your best bet. Then determine how much bullet will be in the case. At this point, fill your empty, primed case with one of the above powders to the point where the base of your bullet will rest while the bullet nose will be touching the lands. Now depending upon which powder you're using, you can add anywhere from .030" to .25" more powder & then top it off with a wad. You'll now need to compress the powder charge somewhat to a depth that will accommodate your bullet. Seat the bullet.
You'll want to test different powders, charges, primers & bullets. You'll also need a good set of dies that'll give you proper neck tension. A good source of info & materials can be found at Buffalo Arms in Idaho.
Good shooting.
  
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boats
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #4 - May 4th, 2016 at 4:55pm
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Side note

BPC Silhouette Turkeys are narrow and not very wind forgiving. BPCR Bulls eye target being round off is off same score loss if it's up down right or left. BPC Target Rifle it's punch a hole in paper, no knock down requirement.

So it depends a lot on what you are shooting at. 

Other issue is spotting. It's real important long range to see your strikes, unless it's a formal range with pits and pulled targets. Heavy bullets make a better splash than light. Get lost zeroing can't find were it's hitting you are screwed.   

So many variables I say shoot what you have and go to school on the other shooters methods and results.  One other thing. Make up your mind is it going to be a BPCSR or BPCTR. They can be quite different guns & loads if optimal for the match.

Boats
« Last Edit: May 4th, 2016 at 5:01pm by boats »  
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John Boy
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #5 - May 4th, 2016 at 5:13pm
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Quote:
If you're going to shoot silhouette BPCR then you should move on up to the 500+ grs
Agree.  Might want to use the 457125 govt bullet (500gr) or the 457132 Postell (535gr)
  
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derrickman
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #6 - May 4th, 2016 at 5:18pm
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Agree.  Might want to use the 457125 govt bullet (500gr) or the 457132 Postell (535gr) 

Yes, both these bullets are good with perhaps a slight edge to the Postell style for longer ranges.
  
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kkid66
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #7 - May 4th, 2016 at 5:50pm
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If that barrel ends in a 20/1 twist you will be limited by bullet length. The 457125 lyman may be your best bet to be stable at the ram line.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #8 - May 4th, 2016 at 5:51pm
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Cuslog, are you set up to cast bullets or are you planning on buying bullets?

If you are set up for casting but have no heavier molds I could lend you a couple of RCBS molds that might work.  One is a 530gr something like a Postell design, and the other is for a 500gr bullet that I believe they sold as a silhouette bullet.  Both should cast at .458" in 20:1.

Chris.
  
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cuslog
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #9 - May 4th, 2016 at 7:30pm
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Thanks for the replies guys.
I think I'll just "leave well enough alone for now" and shoot the commercial cast 405's I have now -- even if they might be a bit of a handicap.
"Boats" reply kind of struck a chord with me -- " a Trapdoor from X Sticks is brutal to shoot due stock shape" I built my rifle (including the butt stock) from the plans available through ASSRA and they show a Swiss style butt plate (I think its called) -- first load I tried was 35 gr of 4198 and from a bench, that thing was more than brutal -- it was downright painful. I quit at 18 rounds -- no longer fun. The Unique load is more tolerable and some have told me that "Black" shoots a bit softer ?
I'm not casting yet -- bought a mould off ebay (wrong one of course) have a bottom pour pot on the way but not here yet.
Chris, thanks for the offer but I wouldn't want to wreck your stuff.
I'll shoot the Kamloops match with what I have - call it a learning experience - no fear of turning in a low score. I have some previous experience at that. Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: May 4th, 2016 at 9:29pm by cuslog »  
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boats
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #10 - May 4th, 2016 at 8:13pm
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I like the Swiss plates, but not on a heavy recoil rifle or one that is shot from prone.

Take a camera and snap some shots of rifles at that match. Guys that have been shooting it a lot no doubt figured out the best way to set the gun up.

Boats
  
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #11 - May 4th, 2016 at 8:45pm
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I'm no BPCR shooter but from previous discussions there may be a conflict with using a Swiss buttplate at some organization's matches, hope not in this circumstance.
  
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cuslog
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #12 - May 4th, 2016 at 9:35pm
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Premod70 wrote on May 4th, 2016 at 8:45pm:
I'm no BPCR shooter but from previous discussions there may be a conflict with using a Swiss buttplate at some organization's matches, hope not in this circumstance.


Yes, you may be correct, I do remember reading something about a maximum amount of curvature, but I think they'd probably still let me shoot if I agree to not be eligible for any prizes ? I doubt that I'll be much of a threat. Tongue
  
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gunlaker
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #13 - May 4th, 2016 at 9:45pm
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Cuslog, technically Swiss buttplates are not BPCR/BPTR legal, but don't worry.  The match directors use "loose NRA" rules.  I've never figured out what that means, but I do know that several shooters use rifles that are a little overweight for instance.  Like me for instance.  My .40-65 is a little over the 12lb 2 oz weight limit.Smiley

In addition to the standard match there is an original rifle silhouette match and trapdoors do well there.  There is also a gong match at 500m, 600m, 700m, and 800m.  The 500m target is offhand which is easier than it sounds.

Chris.
  
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Mick B
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Re: Long range / Heavier bullets ?
Reply #14 - May 4th, 2016 at 11:01pm
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My ten cents worth.
Get a custom mould that makes a bullet similar to the 457125 Lyman rather than buying the Lyman mould, Lyman moulds can be a bit iffy.
Forget neck tension unless experimentation shows a definite improvement in accuracy when using neck tension. For hunting neck tension is required to stop the bullets falling out, not an issue with target shooting.
As for primer choice I would try the following three for a start, Federal GM215 M large rifle, CCI BR2 LR and Federal L/M Pistol primers, one of these should give acceptable results.
Finally you can them spend the rest of your life buying new moulds and re loading gadgets etc.
Remember the collectors motto, " Whoever dies with the most stuff wins".
Welcome to the great obsession.
Mike.
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