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JLouis
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Math Question
Apr 16th, 2016 at 7:40pm
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If the muzzle of your rifle moves off your holding point by 1 thousands of an inch as the bullet leaves the barrel what would the resulting error be at 200yds.?

Just some food for thought and the answers to this question should prove to be interesting and an eye opener for some of us.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2016 at 7:46pm by JLouis »  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Math Question
Reply #1 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 8:38pm
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Should be about 0.020".   Edit, assuming a 30-32" barrel.
« Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2016 at 8:52pm by Schuetzenmiester »  

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JackHughs
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Re: Math Question
Reply #2 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 8:51pm
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This sounds like fun.

There are are two possible answers for the question as it is asked. The first answer assumes that the bullet leaves (completely exits) the barrel at "exactly" the same time that the barrel moves.  In this case, the POI does not change at all.

The key to the question is in the way it's written.  That is, a straight line from the center of the muzzle to the POA never moves more than .001" from the POA.  This means that the POI can never change by more than .001".

If the question specified movement at the muzzle rather than movement at the POA, there are a number of interesting answers. 

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CajunRebel
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Re: Math Question
Reply #3 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 8:54pm
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Not .2"?  Making it easy for me... Based upon a 36" sight radius or using a scope, regardless whether the movement is at the rear or front sight, I believe will result in a movement of .1 inch per 100 yards.
« Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2016 at 9:13pm by CajunRebel »  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Math Question
Reply #4 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 10:15pm
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It has been a lot of years since I was calculating 1,000 yard sight settings for people, but if you move the sight .1" that moves the bullet 1 MOA or 1.04" at 100 yds.  Assuming a 30 -32" inch barrel will have a sight radius of about 36".  Move it .1 at 200 you get 2".  Therefore, move the rifle either end has the same affect and .001" will get 0.020" at 200 yds. 

Break out your slide rule or trig tables if more precision is necessary, but it is only a few thou  @ 200  Cheesy
  

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JS47
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Re: Math Question
Reply #5 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 10:28pm
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CajunRebel wrote on Apr 16th, 2016 at 8:54pm:
Not .2"?  Making it easy for me... Based upon a 36" sight radius or using a scope, regardless whether the movement is at the rear or front sight, I believe will result in a movement of .1 inch per 100 yards.


.200 is the correct answer.  This question can be set up as a simple proportion.  Assuming a 36" sight radius, .001/36" = X/7200". Cross multiplying we get 36X= 7.2.  7.2/36 = .200".  Using the same method it is easy to find how much sight adjustment is needed to move the point of impact a desired distance at a given range.  Fortunately, this is one of the few things I remember from math classes. Smiley

JS
« Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2016 at 10:34pm by JS47 »  
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cuslog
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Re: Math Question
Reply #6 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 10:31pm
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Assuming iron sights;
IF (big IF) your eyes are focused on the sights and you maintain sight alignment (which you probably will IF your focus is on the sights) and IF you dont snatch at the trigger as that blurry blob of target drifts by, POI only moves .001
  
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bpjack
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Re: Math Question
Reply #7 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 10:39pm
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If you are lucky the wind will blow it back on target  I am never lucky!

Jack
  

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shovel80
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Re: Math Question
Reply #8 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 10:44pm
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two tenths of a minute? But only in a perfect Condition!

Terry
  

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Hayface
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Re: Math Question
Reply #9 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 11:17pm
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Tricky! 

More specific information defining "as the bullet leaves the bore" and in what fashion the movement takes place is required to have any hope of accurately answering this fiendishly diabolical question.  Theoretically, if the bullet is at all still being controlled by the barrel as the shift occurs, then the point of impact will also shift.  If the bullet has in fact exited by as little as a few tenths (.0001") precisely as the muzzle shift occurs, no impact shift should occur.  However, even then some impact shift is possible due solely to that minute crown movement redirecting gas flow for a split second against the projectile base to a path slightly different in relationship to the direction of projectile travel.  Even then, the degree of shift from such crown redirection of gasses will vary depending on the mass of the projectile, its size, shape, velocity, and the residual gas volume and pressure within the bore at the time of projectile exit.  Lightweight, high velocity, little projectiles are usually more affected by crown variations than big old lumbering buffalo slayers.  The amount of shift would be nearly impossible to accurately predict with only the information provided and way beyond my skills to calculate even if more information were given.  My geezer brain starts to short out after just so much of this treachery. 
 
However, theoretically, assuming the projectile is still under control of the barrel as movement occurs, if the movement of the muzzle shift is perfectly parallel in relationship to sight alignment, the impact will shift an equal amount regardless of distance.  BUT, if the .001" shift is angular in relationship to the sight alignment, while the projectile is still under control of the bore, then the amount of impact shift will depend on the MOA that .001" muzzle movement represents.

Oh, that is a deviously asked question!

Fortunately, I do not have to concern myself with such intricacies.  My groups these days look a lot like a robin that ate too many mulberries left a deposit.  I’m happy if the holes even just sort of look like they might be friends on the target.

You hard holders will have to worry about it!

Hayface
  
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JLouis
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Re: Math Question
Reply #10 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 11:22pm
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The question has nothing to do with the sight radius! That assumption is not related to the original question and is completly off topic.

JLouis
  

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EricJ
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Re: Math Question
Reply #11 - Apr 16th, 2016 at 11:55pm
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If the barrel moves at the literal instant the bullet moves .001" it will only be off by .001" at any distance.  The only way it will be more is if you move the muzzle before the bullet gets to the exact muzzle then it will be a trig problem by using the distance of the bullet to the muzzle when the muzzle was moved.
Draw a line on a piece of paper and shift that line up .001" and then draw that line again and at the end it will be only .001".  They will both run parallel to each other no matter what as long as the bullet leaves exactly at the muzzle when barrel is shifted.
Sight line has nothing to do with it since the bullet is a point in time as it exits the muzzle.
  
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JS47
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Re: Math Question
Reply #12 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 12:23am
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JLouis wrote on Apr 16th, 2016 at 11:22pm:
The question has nothing to do with the sight radius! That assumption is not related to the original question and is completly off topic.

JLouis


I agree sight radius was not in your question but I think the proportionality I described may apply.  I don't know but I'm thinking that if you had a 36" barrel, rather than a 36" sight radius, the same simple equation may provide the answer. This is assuming that the muzzle is moved and the breach is not.  If the muzzle is moved and the breach is moved a little differently, then  things would get complicated. 

JS
  
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JackHughs
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Re: Math Question
Reply #13 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 12:33am
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How about this?

If John's question is re-written to state that the muzzle moves .001" at the instant that the bullet leaves the muzzle, then, mathematically the deviation from POA approaches infinity.

Consider the .001" movement as the "y" component.  As the "x" component (the bullet's position with respect to the muzzle) approaches zero (exits the muzzle), the angle between the x and y components approaches 90 degrees.   

JackHughs
  

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Re: Math Question
Reply #14 - Apr 17th, 2016 at 12:36am
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I read this as ONLY the muzzle moves.  The butt is stationary.  The sight radius is not important but the total length of the gun is.  The gun is not moving parallel to the axis of the original sight, but has now created a tiny angle, based on the length of the gun representing the adjacent side of a right triangle and the opposite side being your given measurement of .001 .  If my assumptions are correct, you would need to know the overall length of the gun to solve the equation, as you have presented it. Tongue
  

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