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cheatin_charlie
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breech seating with blackpowder
Mar 11th, 2016 at 11:39am
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I am asking for your experience in breechseat a 32/40 with blackpowder.
Not wanting to reinvent the wheel I would welcome input on your experience
as to what seems to work and what is a waste of time.  The first tests I used
two type of 3f and one of 2f.  Cases filled to the top and used Walter wad to hold
powder in flush with case.  Bullet seated in barrel flush with case mouth.
   I found out it doesn't like 3f  velocity spread of 200 fps and 4" up down on target. 2f spread of 20 fps and 1.062 group at 100 yds.  I am going to make a new plugged case to seat bullet .062 in front of case and try that.
   Any suggestions of where to go from here?  Anybody try compressing the 
powder like used in 45/70 blackpowder rifle cartridges?
   I am wiping between shots to clean out fouling.  Using Douglas barrel and 
Barnett mold 188g,  .980 long.  Thanks
  
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frnkeore
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #1 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 11:55am
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Your longer plug case should improve groups.

You didn't say what kind of powder or what lube your using. If the powder is GOEX, FG will improve your groups, too.

If your not using Rem 2 1/2 primers, they should also help.

Frank
  

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RSW
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #2 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 3:17pm
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cheatin_charlie
If your 2F load was a 3-shot group at 100 yds, I would call that promising. If it was a 5-shot group, I would say you are definitely on the right track. If it was a 10-shot group, I would say you have arrived! Your 1.062" group is essentially minute of angle (MOA). Consistent sub-MOA with straight black powder is a pretty elusive goal even with ideal range conditions.
As a point of reference, in his 1899 catalog, Harry Pope would guarantee his barrels would shoot 10 shots into 3" at 200 yds for an additional $5 fee. Add another $5 and he would guarantee 10 shot groups of 2 1/2" at 200 yds. That 3" group is approximately 1.5 MOA and 2 1/2" group would be 1.25 MOA. If you can consistently shoot into 1" at 100 yds, I think your accuracy is very good.
Your idea of seating bullets .062 ahead of case mouth is a good idea and may help accuracy. With some rifles, it also helps to use a felt wad to fill that void between the case mouth and bullet base. Just for grins and giggles, you might also try filling the cartridge case through either a 12" or 24" drop tube. Slowly trickle the powder to ensure that each case fills consistently.
Frank's suggestion about using 1F and pistol primers is also good advice. I've had good luck with both Swiss 1F and 1.5F for 32-40.
  

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gunlaker
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #3 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 4:47pm
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Doing the things that Frank and RSW recommend has worked well for me.  I always use a drop tube out of habit with BP.  If charging the cases at home, rather than re-using the same case, I use a compression die to ensure a uniform amount of compression in the case.  If loading at the range with a single case I compress a tiny bit with a compression plug held in my hand.

I would love to shoot moa or better consistently at 200 yards.  Ten shot groups at one moa or better are a rare thing with black powder in my experience.

Chris.
  
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cheatin_charlie
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #4 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 4:48pm
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RSW
I shot 8 shots with my 2f load and 7 made the 1 1/16" group.  The wide shot I
called because the rifle twisted a lot and I called it.  I was resting the round barrel in the front rest and it is a sporting style rifle so it is hard to control.
  I made a 3" wide forearm for it today to ride the bags better and resist twisting
I have just now drop tubed my powder and am anxious to try it again.  Probably
be next week before I can get back out if the weather cooperates.  I am in Ohio
so things can be iffy.  I hope to make a compression die and work with that for
awhile also.  I always shot smokeless in my single shots but this is way fun.
    I used to shoot BPCR with 40-65 and am trying to use what I learned from
that discipline to the 32-40.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #5 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 5:54pm
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One more thing, if you don't clean between shots, including blow tubing, you'll need to add a LDPE wad, to help keep fouling from building.

Frank
  

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bruce moulds
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #6 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 6:10pm
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Charlie,
frank makes a good point.
absolutely consistent barrel condition from shot to shot is a necessity for consistent bullet placement.
given that your droptubed charges are of consistent column height,your bullets are good, and you hold, aim, and squeeze right, it is ALL about finding the best airgap.
40 and 45 cals seem to like at least 1/8" gap, with smaller calibres liking less. (generally speaking)
going out in 0.010 or 0.020 increments, it will become very obvious when you find a tune.
it is worth going past the tune to find the extremes, and load in the middle.
pistol primers can help, as can a paper wad under the primer in later fine tuning.
also trying 1f and 1.5 f could be of value.
do the yards and reap the rewards. Cheesy Cool
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Mick B
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #7 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 6:40pm
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All of the above is excellent advice, a plugged case is the cheapest form of breech seater and you can make it adjustable by simply placing washers that will fit in the case under the plug, thereby moving it out further in increments equal to the thickness of the washers used. All of the above only works if the have a rifle action that has a good camming action such as a Hi Wall or a Stevens etc. Also a tapered bullet helps greatly as well.  Just my 10c worth.
Mike.
  
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SSShooter
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #8 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 9:09pm
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You can "cam" your cartridge into place in about any dropping block action with a 'cartridge seating tool' from Arizona Sharpshooters. I cam my 800/900/1000yd loads into a Hepburn action about 1/8-3/16" using one. Should work just as well with a BS bullet & case, which I plan to try in a couple of weeks. He makes them for all the popular dropping block actions. 

Forgot to mention that I shot my highest 600yd score ever with this same load being cammed into the chamber with the AzS tool. It is some effort to do so. I'm looking forward to shooting again at 200yd and longer distances with a truly BS seated bullet.

Also, I'm surprised that folks are talking about using an 'air gap'. It has always been my understanding that it a possibility to "ring" the barrel if shooting with an air gap.
« Last Edit: Mar 12th, 2016 at 8:44am by SSShooter »  

Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #9 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 11:24pm
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Mick B wrote on Mar 11th, 2016 at 6:40pm:
All of the above is excellent advice, a plugged case is the cheapest form of breech seater and you can make it adjustable by simply placing washers that will fit in the case under the plug, thereby moving it out further in increments equal to the thickness of the washers used. All of the above only works if the have a rifle action that has a good camming action such as a Hi Wall or a Stevens etc. Also a tapered bullet helps greatly as well.  Just my 10c worth.
Mike.


You can also pop it in with the heal over your hand with a push rod and an appropriate handle. Small mallet works for slightly over sized bullet.
  

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cheatin_charlie
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #10 - Mar 17th, 2016 at 6:57pm
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I thought I would post a picture of my latest targets using blackpowder at 100 yds.  The rifle is a Stevens 44.5 action with Douglas barrel 1" dia 28" long.  Not
a benchrest rifle and I am having trouble controlling recoil consistantly.  But I am learning.  Ignore the small holes they are .22. Target on left shot with rifle
primers. Middle and right shot with pistol primers.  I shot middle target them tried some other combo's and then went back and shot right target same combo
as middle target.  I feel I am getting somewhere just have to keep playing.  Have to cast more bullets to keep shooting.  I am going to shoot some 4227 to
get a baseline with this rifle.  Having fun in Ohio!
  
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John Boy
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #11 - Mar 17th, 2016 at 7:55pm
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Charlie - you haven't mentioned the brand of powder your using.  Why? Different brands of powder produce either a hard or soft foul and foul in the bore will negate accuracy.
Anyway I would recommend patching the bore after each shot with a water patch then a dry one which will yield uniform accuracy.  Be sure to keep the chamber dry
In case you are interested, the original Lehigh Valley Lube formula is the best cleaner and conditioner of bores shooting black powder ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
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cheatin_charlie
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Re: breech seating with blackpowder
Reply #12 - Mar 17th, 2016 at 8:47pm
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John, I do clean between shots and am using the powder I have on hand now.
Rifle didn't like Kik 3f or Olde Eynsford 3f or Goex 1.5f.  Shot best target with
Shutzen 2f.  A friend has Swiss 1.5 for me to try.  I am changing butt stock so I
it can ride the bags better.  I am sharing notes with a friend who knows about
slug guns and a lot of info is interchangable.  Thanks for the interest.
By the way I am getting 19 to 20 fps E.S. for 5 shot group.
Charlie
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2016 at 8:54pm by cheatin_charlie »  
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