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Schuetzenmiester
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FFL required shipping
Mar 10th, 2016 at 2:09am
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In a for sale thread there was a discussion about the requirements of FFL to transfer a Ballard 22. 

Out of curiosity, I goggled and found this: "manufactured in or before 1898; and...
B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica...

1. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition,"

here: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

That seems to me that 1898 does not matter if the firearm uses conventional, commonly available ammo.    Has that been recently changed?  When? 

WA antique definition has a similar conventional ammo requirement.
  

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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #1 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 8:14am
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I don't believe the definition of a firearm has changed.  Any firearm made on or before 1898 is an antique and is not considered a firearm.  A replica of an antique made after 1898 however, is a firearm if it shoots a readily available, self-contained cartridge.  The replica is not considered a firearm if it does not shoot a self-contained cartridge or if it is chambered only for a cartridge not  available today, i.e. 44 Henry rim fire.   

It has been brought up to the Shiloh Rifle company that since they make Sharps in cartridges not readily available (40-50ss, 40-70ss, 44-90 and others), why do they only ship the new firearms to FFL dealers.  Their reply was they want no problems with ATF.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #2 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 10:39am
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Mar 10th, 2016 at 2:09am:
In a for sale thread there was a discussion about the requirements of FFL to transfer a Ballard 22. 

Out of curiosity, I goggled and found this: "manufactured in or before 1898; and...
B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica...

1. is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition,"

here: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

That seems to me that 1898 does not matter if the firearm uses conventional, commonly available ammo.    Has that been recently changed?  When? 

WA antique definition has a similar conventional ammo requirement.


The link you posted concerns reproductions of antique firearms. So a reproduction of an antique, chambered in .22RF is not exempt from an FFL transfer.

"B. Any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica 

 

1.is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or


2.uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #3 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 3:25pm
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It means "any firearm manufactured before 1898" regardless of the ammo it is chambered for?  And regardless of any modification such as rechambering for a more modern cartridge if the action was manufactured before 1898?
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #4 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 3:54pm
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I think WA definition is the confusion point: ""Antique firearm" means a firearm or replica of a firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade." (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

How does  shipping an antique under this definition apply? Seems that state authorities could "be offended" when the ATF  is not?
  

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marlinguy
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #5 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 5:06pm
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Most sellers have a line in their sales stating, "Buyers must know your state and local laws, to determine if this firearm can be sent directly to you."
There are a number of states that have laws that require "antique" firearms re-chambered for modern cartridges to go through an FFL. But that's the buyer's responsibility, as the seller is not breaking any federal law selling or sending it to you. The buyer is breaking the law if his state requires something different, and he doesn't do it.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #6 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 7:14pm
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marlinguy wrote on Mar 10th, 2016 at 5:06pm:
Most sellers have a line in their sales stating, "Buyers must know your state and local laws, to determine if this firearm can be sent directly to you."
There are a number of states that have laws that require "antique" firearms re-chambered for modern cartridges to go through an FFL. But that's the buyer's responsibility, as the seller is not breaking any federal law selling or sending it to you. The buyer is breaking the law if his state requires something different, and he doesn't do it.

It appears that since 594 passed in WA requiring a background check for every transfer, all incoming needs to go through an FFL if it fires an available cartridge.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #7 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 7:55pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Mar 10th, 2016 at 7:14pm:
[
It appears that since 594 passed in WA requiring a background check for every transfer, all incoming needs to go through an FFL if it fires an available cartridge. 


Bummer! Sorry that thing passed for you guys!
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #8 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 12:19am
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marlinguy wrote on Mar 10th, 2016 at 7:55pm:
Schuetzenmiester wrote on Mar 10th, 2016 at 7:14pm:
[
It appears that since 594 passed in WA requiring a background check for every transfer, all incoming needs to go through an FFL if it fires an available cartridge. 


Bummer! Sorry that thing passed for you guys!

My brother in LaGrande says they have background or FFL for all transfers now in OR too.  Is that correct?
  

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marlinguy
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #9 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 10:14am
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Mar 11th, 2016 at 12:19am:
[
My brother in LaGrande says they have background or FFL for all transfers now in OR too.  Is that correct?


Not quite true. Antiques are still exempt. Last year they passed a new law that says any transfer done between two private parties of a modern firearm requires an FFL. Exceptions are gifts or inheritances to family members. But if it's not a family member, and not at a gun show, a dealer needs to be involved. 
Our gun show law allows private parties to call in to the state themselves, and have a background check done. So I can make the call on a modern firearm, and simply give them a credit card number to pay the fee. No dealer involved, and still nothing done for pre 1899 guns.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #10 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 2:33pm
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marlinguy wrote on Mar 11th, 2016 at 10:14am:
Schuetzenmiester wrote on Mar 11th, 2016 at 12:19am:
[
My brother in LaGrande says they have background or FFL for all transfers now in OR too.  Is that correct?


Not quite true. Antiques are still exempt. Last year they passed a new law that says any transfer done between two private parties of a modern firearm requires an FFL. Exceptions are gifts or inheritances to family members. But if it's not a family member, and not at a gun show, a dealer needs to be involved. 
Our gun show law allows private parties to call in to the state themselves, and have a background check done. So I can make the call on a modern firearm, and simply give them a credit card number to pay the fee. No dealer involved, and still nothing done for pre 1899 guns.



Slightly more sane than WA.
  

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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #11 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 2:55pm
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Schuetzenmiester,

Something else for you to consider from your WA State link...

(25) "Transfer" means the intended delivery of a firearm to another person without consideration of payment or promise of payment including, but not limited to, gifts and loans.

So, say you want to temporarily "loan" one of your firearms to another shooter at the range so they can "try out" or "use" your firearm for one match, or you wish to temporarily "loan" one of your firearms to an up and coming young hunter for a part of the day out in the field, does WA State now require you to process the temporary "loan" of your firearm through an FFL holder beforehand?
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #12 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 6:08pm
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BP wrote on Mar 11th, 2016 at 2:55pm:
Schuetzenmiester,

Something else for you to consider from your WA State link...

(25) "Transfer" means the intended delivery of a firearm to another person without consideration of payment or promise of payment including, but not limited to, gifts and loans.

So, say you want to temporarily "loan" one of your firearms to another shooter at the range so they can "try out" or "use" your firearm for one match, or you wish to temporarily "loan" one of your firearms to an up and coming young hunter for a part of the day out in the field, does WA State now require you to process the temporary "loan" of your firearm through an FFL holder beforehand?



That is a debatable question and I will never be a president setting test case as I no longer hunt.  I do not loan guns at the range. If they are stolen, I make an attempt to recover them before leaving.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #13 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 6:22pm
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BP wrote on Mar 11th, 2016 at 2:55pm:
Schuetzenmiester,

Something else for you to consider from your WA State link...

(25) "Transfer" means the intended delivery of a firearm to another person without consideration of payment or promise of payment including, but not limited to, gifts and loans.

So, say you want to temporarily "loan" one of your firearms to another shooter at the range so they can "try out" or "use" your firearm for one match, or you wish to temporarily "loan" one of your firearms to an up and coming young hunter for a part of the day out in the field, does WA State now require you to process the temporary "loan" of your firearm through an FFL holder beforehand?


Very good question, and from what I understand one that many law enforcement personnel are also having trouble with the new Washington law. Most police departments have stated they have such a confusing law that they're stumped on how to enforce it, and wont even try.
When it was first presented, many people told me they interpreted the law as you couldn't even hand a gun to another person (with intent to sell) unless a dealer was in the middle of it to do the handling. Unsure if that's the way it's written or not, but sure has a lot of good honest gun owners confused and worried.
  

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Re: FFL required shipping
Reply #14 - Mar 11th, 2016 at 7:45pm
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Vall,

Have to admit that I feel sorry for the LEO's in this situation, especially when the liberal lawyers who drafted the legislation aren't capable of explaining what their own legalese means.
The result is escalating contempt for the "Law" in general, and lawyers in particular.
And it's interesting how many lawyers don't even like the term "lawyer" anymore.
  

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