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calledflyer
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waving the flag...
Mar 3rd, 2016 at 4:00pm
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I don't have any, and never used them, but with all the recent threads mentioning wind drift, I'd like to hear how you competitors place your wind flags. A thought....
Often, when I go to the range people place flags for themselves. Never have I seen any of them place a flag nearer than about thirty yards from the benches. Some even right about the targets area. Now, my logic says that a flag right at, or near, the bench can be very telling since if the bullet is affected right off the bat, it's flight will be more altered than any that is nearly at the target. I know wind isn't the same at every shooting range, but right in front of the shooter seems to be disregarded. Thoughts, guys?.......
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #1 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 4:12pm
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I place my flag within 25 yards of the firing line. Some times I place a couple more out to 100.  I don't care what happens beyond.  Too late in the flight and too confusing.

Quite often  I have a wind indicator at the bench, but not necessarily a full size flag. 

I use propellers to indicate a critical speed when it is time to pay attention and wind socks to indicate changes above that speed. 

Mirage is a better indicator when you have it.   YMMV  Shocked
  

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JLouis
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #2 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 4:26pm
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I always place my first flag about ten feet in front of the bench, the second at fifty yards and the third at about 120 yds. If I am using four I will space them equally from the first for 200yd. competition. The first flag is generally the more important but there are times the last one will over ride it on a given day. Idealy you want them all to show the same condition before taking a shot but at our range it is not a common thing. If the mirage is running good it will usualy superceed the flags but I will still shoot it with a flag or flags running in the same direction. The lack of mirage at our range is a very uncommon event so its hard to be more specific. as at times it becomes a constant mode of change to which flags lies the most.

JLouis
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #3 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 4:42pm
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Lack of mirage is the typical Tacoma Condition.  Low, tricky little breezes won't push you far, just far enough  Angry

I might add, I shot my first 250 using only 25% of the 25 ring for most of the shots in variable winds quartering from 1030 to 900, up and down from 5 to 10 mph. Surprised the heck out of me  Cheesy
  

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FITZ
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #4 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 5:22pm
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I have a dear friend that was in his time a serious Black powder competitor. Shooting SS rifles with black he was always in the top three places and most of the time 1st. He would get all set up, fire a couple of sighters.By the way bench shooting. And then he would kind of set back and watch. Ultimately he would lean forward into the Rifle, shoulder it and get his record shot off within a few seconds. Over many years those who shot against him were puzzled. I finally asked him. His reply was, " I was watching their Smoke, When the Black Powder smoke just rolls out in front and hangs there that's the time to shoot." Now he was watching the smoke out at 25 to 50 yds. He often told me the wind right where you are shooting is most likely the most important. HTH, Regards, FITZ. Smiley
  

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gunlaker
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #5 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 6:05pm
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I learned something about flag placement in Tacoma last spring.  The range has a couple of steps in elevation as you get out to 200 yards.  If you place your flag a few feet after one of these steps, it will not move much in a head or tailwind Smiley.   I've never shot at a range like that.  My flag placement was useless so I used everyone elses flags.

For BPTR, a personal flag right at the firing line can be very useful.

Chris.
  
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calledflyer
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #6 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 6:30pm
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Yeah, to using others' flags. We get wind, and I do look around me, but mostly I just wait it out. Not competing, just trying to do well.
By the way, when it's so windy out there that group shooting gets frustrating, I just use the trip to pot shot the crap folks leave around. Clay pigeons on the berm are a favorite. One day a guy had a hanging dinger out beyond 300. I asked, and when he heard I planned to shoot with a .32-40 he spotted for me. Took three shots, but I did it. Never shot that far with it before or since.
  
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boats
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #7 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 6:42pm
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You can see a lot looking at natural indicators, grass branches dust off the backstop.  Powder smoke off muzzles one of the best 

Boats
  
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JLouis
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #8 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 7:15pm
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I have the best use of wind flags to tell me when not shoot more so than when to. Our range is unique our benches have only a few inches between them so the shooting lanes are only spaced about five feet apart. It quite typical to have the flags on the left and right of you doing something completly different than those in your lane. I have on several occassions seen those to lazy to bring and set out their own wind flags in their lane get burned real bad by using someone elses next to them. What the other wind flags on the range are generally good for is to let you know what will be headed your way in very short order should they show a change.

JLouis
  

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calledflyer
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #9 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 9:32pm
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There's some interesting comments here. We have a full roof above- never really thought about downdraft from it. 'Course, like I said, never saw a flag up close to it either. 
Those flags being still while sheltered by the berms is understandable, but I might not have thought of it in time either.
Boats mentioned watching the surroundings. I agree with that. But, I got a chuckle about the grass. More like blowing rocks here sometime. No grass.   
Wind blowing more directions than one is common too. And, at different speeds sometimes. I never used blackpowder smoke for anything but a reason to bitch but it would serve for wind info. Not much mirage here, but I'm aware of it when it occurs-sometimes.
Let me also ask you all: do you ever think that using the flags makes you over think your shooting? 
Fun conversation, hope more chime in.
  
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Pentz
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #10 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 10:01pm
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Our range is in the woods at 1200 ft on a benchy south slope.  In the last year we've put up some baffle walls along the south side, and then the adjacent timber land was logged.  Our winds come from the south west, and you can guess the hob these developments have played with our range.  I just watch other competitor's flags, especially 20 yards in front of our benches.
  

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JLouis
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #11 - Mar 3rd, 2016 at 10:32pm
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Having to many flags for your brain to compute for some is a real handicap. While one is looking through the scope, looking out his off shooting eye for what the flags are doing, concentrating on the target hold, trigger squeeze, cheek pressure, being totally relaxed etc, etc, etc can become somewhat over whelming. Good shooting really is all about not cutting short on wind indicators but getting out allot to devleop muscle memory until it all becomes natural with little thought input. You will get to a point when you just
do it and it works and when it doesn't you immediately recognize why.

JLouis
  

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boats
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #12 - Mar 4th, 2016 at 6:32am
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Bench shooters have to pay attention to the wind . Can't shoot small groups ignoring it.  Not shooting bench all offhand I watch it too. But I look for the big movements and determine the major condition. Then prove winds effect on the sighter target. Pick one indicator I can trust and stick with it. 

The indicator will vary depending in the range winds direction etc.   Good example smoke from black powder wind at 6 o/c coming through and over the shooting house is a false indicator. 

Too much input not proven sighting is a negative.

I have docked a lot of boats ships barges.  Tide is generally the major factor but depending on the vessel wind will twist and turn you.  Dock you have never worked gusty changing conditions, seagull sitting on a piling best wind indicator . They always sit beak into the wind. Precisely into it, get a small shift they shift.

But you guys out West probably don't have seagulls watch wind for you. 

Boats
  
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JLouis
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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #13 - Mar 4th, 2016 at 9:29am
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Boats we have Horses and Cows, one sticks his arss into the wind and the other his head.

JLouis
  

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Re: waving the flag...
Reply #14 - Mar 4th, 2016 at 10:00am
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calledflyer,

The use of wind flags, or wind directional indicators, wind socks, surveyors tape on a stick will improve your scores once you learn to trust what they are telling you.
As to where.  Some say right in front or your bench, some say so many yds out etc....  I put out a wind probe with a wind directional pan out about 25 yds approx. I put a wind flag/pointer with tails around 50ish yds one at 100 yds and one at around 160ish yds.
I angle them from my left side to the right so I can see as much of each as I can.
I am no big time wind reader, a bit impatient, but getting better, and improving my scores.

Which is most important,  they all are.   I was shooting at Beeson range working HARD to read conditions and doing ok, I saw my condition coming by looking at others wind flags and got ready for it to get to my lane of flight.  Saw my condition and let it go.  A very good shooter I sit next to so as to learn or some of his stuff will rub off on me, leaned over and said "low left"  I thought BS that was a good call and is in my group.  I spotted the shot and guess what, impact low left of my group.
The fellow that made the call without even seeing it or even down on his rifle, was getting ready to load his rifle while he watched the conditions, I asked how in the heck did you see that?  He said, "didn't you see your far flag do that twitch just as you shot?  Guess not.

I had watched that guy shoot two 250's in one relay one morning. And many 250's and tight groups, I learned huge amounts from him and his bud next to him, both from western NY,  and have gotten to where I can stay close to them sometimes and even out do on rare occasions.   
I have learned so much from them two, Dale Reynolds and Jeff Schultz

Get some flags and learn to trust them.......
  
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