Chuckster wrote on Feb 28^th, 2016 at 10:26pm:

I know for sure a Pope nose will shoot a 250 in a .33 

Frank I went back to 9/13/14 to review the 250's shot at our club matches, that is about when Terry started shooting with us in our registered matches and Jerry Hartwig has two 250's shot with his 25WCF, MOS 120gr. semi spitzer and Terry Harper has two 250's, 245gr. Darr Flat Nose with his 33-47. Feel free to go back further all the scores are posted on this site. If Memory serves right Rick McHale has shot one but I don't recall which of his two favorite bullets he used? and I believe Jan has also shot at least one, MOS 211gr. semi spitzer I believe as it was one if his favorites. There have been quite few 250's shot in practice but very few in matches when they actually count. The new ASSRA Bartlett Match 100yd. 5-5 Shot Group Average record of .3883 was set with a Darr Cyl. 200gr. flat nose bullet in Oct. 2013 at our range if that helps?

Rick McHale usually shoots a 234gr. PJ spitzer in his 32-40 but I believe he shot his 250 with a MOS 205gr. or 211gr. semi spitzer if memory serves me right. All of the MOS semi spitzers / spitzers  out this way have a a real short stubby nose of about 4 maybe 5 bullet daimeters and about a .080 meplat.

Back in the day of CBA I used a 6 diameter ogive Darr spitzer bullet and I also had 7 both being the only ones in this neck of the woods and I won alot of matches with it and a CBA National Championship in 2006. It wasn't until Barry moved up here with me about 3-4 years ago now that I started using a Flat Nose. Had I been using back in the day in CBA Matches I would have set more club records as well as some National Records / my ulitimate goal at the time , they have made that much difference for me. They might not work as well for others but it is sure with a try.
You posed a question about my thoughts on Ballistics, as you know you had an opportunity to run bullets and loads through the Oheler Ballistics System at one of our ISSA Regionals thanks to Barry. I had unlimited access to it for over two years and I believe I learned more during that time that  I spent with it than you did in what a 1/2 hour maybe tad more. What I learned is what is supposed to work, high BC's heavy bullets and high speed does not always provide the best consistency day in and day out with the soft and fragile bullets we use. I have seen the results of both under spin and over spin, wind drift both high BC's and low, temp changes etc. all provided in real time provided by the ballistics program.

John,
First, when I was speaking about bullet testing, I was wondering if you had noticed the spitzers got to the target faster (starting at the same vel) than flatter nosed bullets. When a bullet does that, with out a doubt, the wind will move it less. That just physics and undeniable.

I agree that a bullets accuracy can be the same, regardless of nose design but, the advantage of the spitzer (increased BC) is that the conditions will move it less and mistakes in gaging condition will be less. And if you can gage the conditions exactly, the accuracy will also be the same but, as far as I've seen, that can't be done. 

Shooting in excellent conditions can minimize the difference, also. Such as shooting in the cool calm morning, over a flat surface and before the sun warms everything up.
   
I think that you got that I was speaking more in terms of 250's shot in completion (one 250 you cited was in practice, I think) and I hoping you got that and I was thinking of one competitor in particular of which you recently wrote:

Quote:


There is also this that helps support spitzers:

Jerry Hartwig        248-248-249-247-248 -1240  ( 25 WCF )
Terry Harper         247-248-244-245-243-1227...Tie
Bruce Kirby          248-245-243-244-245-1227...Tie 
John Louis            245-244-244-246-242-1221   

I could add this but, it's iron sights:

Hartwig:    247/7-249/9-243/4-243/4-246/6=1228/30
Kirby:        244/4-239/2-244/4-246/6-240/2=1213/18
Davis:       241/3-243/4-241/3-243/3-244/5=1212/18
Harper:     245/5-242/2-238/2-242/2-242/2=1209/13
Louis:       243/4-239/2-238/2-244-5-244/5=1208/18

And to give credit, where credit is do:

1st..........1233, 30 Centers, Terry Harper.
2nd.........1232, 28 Centers, Jerry Hartwig.
3rd..........1221, 21 Centers, Rich Davis
4th...........1219, 24 Centers, Stu Harvey
5th...........1205, 19 Centers, Vince Demaggio
6th...........1203, 15 Centers, Bruce Kirby
7th...........1199, 13 Centers, John Louis

While my condition doping leaves a lot to be desired, I've shot some pretty good groups and scores in difficult conditions with my 33 ELCO, using spitzers. The posted, Ron Long  bullet , did very well at your range, when shot in a Hepburn 33/47. BTW, that actual bullet mold casts .003+ out of round.

While I've not shot a 250,my spitzers have shot .463, five shot group @ 200 (home range), back to back 249's, 1230, 50 shot match @ Spokane

Frank in flight bullet stability is also a big factor with wind drift and just because a paticular bullet design can get to the target faster does not mean it will always drift less. We are all aware of the fact that a bullet needs to go sleep after leaving the muzzle before it stabalizes. Would a bullet that took longer to stabilze be more affected by the wind as it transitions into stable flight? Would a long spitzer whos balance point / pivot point has been moved back further be more affected by a 10:00 o clock wind pushing on the nose? Would that same long spitzer be more or less stable / hold its course of flight in rough conditions? 
There is more to it than just simply speed and time flight Frank and you unknowingly pointed it out in your CBA Group example of over .6 as it could very easily and consistently be less than that of which would be required to be or remain competitive on a national basis. Having shot 13 consecutive 100yd. 5-5 shot averages under .500 with my cylindrical flat nose bullet and then the record is simply a fact and living proof that it can be done. I might add that when I set out to break the record I was also using a PJ spitzer and other various spitzer designs side by side with the FN and all though the ballistic system showed the PJ had a higher BC and time of flight my 5-5 shot averages where less consistent based on the different wind conditions on a give day and the real determing factor to achieve the consistency required. Breaking that record was a goal I set for myself and I spent months going to the range twice a week to develop a load that would get me there and it took a tremendous amount of time, energy and testing and it wasn't just a fluke or luck when I accomplished that goal. If one of the spitzer designs provided better day in and day out consistency it would have indeed been the bullet of choice for the task and per the ballistics system one of them should have been if one only went off the BC and time of flight numbers and in all honesty I did not think the FN would end up being the bullet of choice.
I am not here to argue with theories I am here to share what has worked for me in hopes that it might work for others as well and that choice is theirs. The lesson I learned on this venture is there is there always something out there that might work a little better than what common since dictates and they are all worth trying if one puts forth the time and effort.

Well Frank I agree to disagree with the answers you provided. Where we seem to differ is I have proven by taking the time and effort to find out what works best for me in regards to consistency and this includes 200yds. as that is where our Monthly and ISSA Regional matches are shot at. You are still basing your comments on theories and to date you have not provided anything substantial by your results from 1985 and moving forward from there. You talk the talk but I have yet to see you walk the walk so there are no facts presented or given on your behalf in regards to what you preach based on your personal experiences and accomplishments over the years. I totally agree with you on what should work best but my life lessons have proven otherwise. Will what works for me work for others?, I don't have a clue but I would encourage you stop discouraging others especially the new shooters by simply telling them what you think is best for them without being able to back it up without riding on the shoulders of others accomplishments and not your own  unlike myself. I am still after 15 years of competitive shooting still on a learning curve with an open mind, you seem to be just the opposite and seem to already know it all and again that is where we differ. I like to share what I am still learning, you are still stuck in your ways and want to start a pissing match after each one of my posts and it does not benefit anyone who would like to become a competitive shooter at some point in time nor does it do this justice as thee place to come and learn on how to get there.

That much typing after a long layoff would destroy my trigger finger's conditioning. 
Me, I'd go with that first thought Chuckster- where you said you thought a bullet with a small (very, very small?) meplat was what ya hoped for.

Hi John, just makin' an observation.

Frank for the last couple of years I have been shooting the 28-35 that I built and have not shot my 32-40 since that time in a match or otherwise. No excuse for the lower scores its all part of getting a new rifle up to par and its slowly starting to hold its own.
Not sure what you meant about posting others scores, you had asked me how many 250's had been shot at our range and I answered your question and I did not include any practice 250's as you stated one was shot in the Regional. 
I was quite surprised to see the list of scores that you had posted as it had nothing to do with your question? I know as you stated it was a blurb to help support spitzers but unknown to you Bruce Kirby also shoots a FN same as mine so two out of the top three in your first example were using one.
I am also not stating that the FN is the Holy Grail only that it is well worth giving a try and could be for some based on my personal experience and it sets you off like a bomb and into another a pissing match trying to disprove it every time I mention it. You cannot change or disprove the facts of my findings Frank so why do you keep trying?
May I ask when Bob Zimmerman mentioned that he had shot several 250's with his FN bullet you didn't have one word to say or try to disclaim his personal experience while using it? 

JLouis