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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf (Read 18513 times)
frnkeore
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Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Feb 11th, 2016 at 3:25pm
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As a lot of you know, I've played with BSing 22rf since 1990 but, with standard match chambers (about .62 long) and 16 twist.

My first rifle was a 922 H&A, with a 26" long, 1.06 across the flats, XX Douglas barrel and the second is a German Schuetzen with a 20" long George Titherington barrel.

I tried many loads with many powders back in those days, using a 44 gr two diameter bullet, with no lube grooves. The same as the 49.5 gr pictured but, with a shorter nose (both the nose and the length of the bullet in the mold can be changed).

My two best loads where 1.5 & 1.8 gr of B'eye but, I could run velocitys to 1442 fps average with 2.5 gr of Unique, in a 20" barrel (not accurate). 

The 1.5 gr load of B'eye, gave 1208 fps, 15.8 SD and 41 ES but with it I shot the .410 5 shot target. 1.8 gr B'eye gave me 1306 fps, 5 SD and 13 ES in the 26" barrel.

I won matches at both my local club and Springfield, OR with the German rifle. At Springfield, during a match one year, I found that the 1.8 gr load was right at the limit of pressure, for the match chamber. I popped a case and the shot went just out of the scoring rings on the 6 bull target so, I quit using that load.

Just 2 weeks ago, I finished my first dedicated BSing 22rf and after I built a sled for it and modified my rest for it. I took it to the range. It has the following spec's:

44 Stevens, Model 45 w/DST triggers. It was a 32/40 so, it has the hammer block.

I posted a while back about a dual firing pin for this CF breech block, I did that (More about it in the next post)

It has a 27.5" long, PacNor, 14 twist barrel, 1.110 across the flats.

Chambered with my match reamer but, a .775 long chamber (sporting length).

The end of the barrel is 1.125 round, for the sled.

Through the years, I've collected some 22 molds, with this project in mind. I tried all but one mold, the RCBS-55 that casts 58+ gr in 20/1. It's the longest of the 22's and because the 225415, tipped badly, I didn't try it.

Some things that I've learn:

1. I used the sporting length chamber because it increases case capacity and I had hoped to shoot at least 60+ gr bullets. With the 56 gr bullet, I'm not getting any pressure signs so, I may shorten the chamber to .675, 2 threads on the barrel

2. I should have started with at least a 12 twist barrel, maybe even a 10. Based on what I've done so far, I think I can get a 70 gr bullet stabilized at 1000 fps, within the pressure limit that the sporting length chamber will handle

Frank
« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2016 at 5:27pm by frnkeore »  

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frnkeore
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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens
Reply #1 - Feb 11th, 2016 at 4:14pm
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Now, about the firing pin arrangement:

It came to light, when I got the idea of making a dual FP, out of a CF breech block, that the case would bulge so, this is what I did

I used a 5/32 EM and cut across the FP hole, to a width of .280 (22rf, rim dia). I made a FP blank to fit that recess and cut it even with the BB face. I then set it up and cut twin FP's .040 with x 90 deg and .040 deep, leaving a circluar area in the center. You should be able to make that out in the picture. It was very hard to take w/o taking the BB out

The shank of the FP is also 5/32 and I put a brass bushing in the back of the FP hole, to support it in the .20 diameter FP hole.

I've now fired at least 250 rounds and no problems have occured. I've not had one miss fire, either. I'm including pictures of the fired cases, with the higher pressure loads and factory Federal 510's.

One other thing that I did was make the head space at .040, instead of .043 of the cartridge rim. The reason for that is, because the 44 BB closes from the rear of the case (not sliding up like a LW) it captures the rim, not letting it be able to move forward, at all. Those two thing, I hope will give better ignition on non target ammo.

The following are pictures of the cases, bullets and the 3 sets of targets that I shot this week. As well as the .410, 5 shot group that I shot in 1990, that started all this.

While these 10 shot groups won't win a match yet, it gives me a base to start from. The lee 225-55, is showing real promice. It cast .226 in 30/1. The Lyman's cast .227 and have been extra hard to BS. On the last target, I sized the 450 and 438, to .223 but, they didn't like it and had fins,. I had made the 438 into a PB and I had to scrape the fins off the back of it before shooting. You can see on the 450 that the rear band, push oneven in to the GC area. I didn't resize the Lee but, it and the 450, where shot w/o GC's. I'll make my no groove bullet a little longer and give it a elliptical nose. It cast the right size at .223. I also, will take .020 off the GC area on the lee mold. It shows the starting of tipping at 1.2 gr B'eye.

I didn't chronograph any of these loads but, all the 1.5 gr loads, where subsonic.

Another enteresting thing was the pulled Federal 510's, shot with the Fed powder charge, grouped pretty good, with 4 in one hole. The low shot was after forgetting to BS a bullet, then firing it. then shooting w/o cleaning and fouling.

The lube, was finger rolled Javalina Schuetzen 
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens
Reply #2 - Feb 11th, 2016 at 4:17pm
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The Targets. The first is the .410, in 1990, the rest this week.

The Eley Club and the Fed 510 (circled) where fixed, factory ammo.

More about the lube, no grooves where filled, they were only rolled between my fingers, just getting the exterior surface wet with lube. I've never had any leading using this Javalina Schuetzen Lube (actually Smilley lube from 1994), Darr or Lee liquid Alox. You may not need ANY lube. I have to test that though.

The bullets are as follows:

225438, .487 long, 43 gr

225450, .655 long, 49.5 gr

Lee 225-55, .580 long, 56.0 gr

ELCO, .562 long, 49.5 gr

Frank

Edit:
After studing the holes in the last target, I found that I mismarked the Fed 510, fixed group (it was a 5 shot group) when I marked it at the range. I remarked it it reflect how large the 450 was.
« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2016 at 2:40pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #3 - Feb 11th, 2016 at 8:40pm
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Frank,

Your thread here is one of the most enjoyable I've read in  quite a good while.      Smiley 
Many Thanks!!
  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #4 - Feb 11th, 2016 at 8:58pm
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Very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  Perhaps I missed it but are those targets at 100 or 200 yards?
  
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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #5 - Feb 11th, 2016 at 10:03pm
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Thank you, BP Smiley

chawk, all targets that I will shoot with this rifle and loading, will be at 100 yards. In my area and Spokane, we only shoot 100 yard matches. (ups, I forgot about the BR 50 match at Spokane)

I have a lot more work to do. I have at least a few more powers to test, as well as pulling about 400 Wolf Match, to use the cases and powder. I'm hoping to find more bullets to test, also.

Frank
« Last Edit: Feb 12th, 2016 at 1:57am by frnkeore »  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #6 - Feb 12th, 2016 at 1:43am
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Most interesting, Frank.  Been thinking about it all evening while the wife & I watched the Bernie & Hillary show.  You can't lie about group size. Here are some thoughts:

Test ammo:  Never shot Federal, but I shoot Eley Club for gallery (50 feet & 25 yards) or for practice at 100.  In my 5 LR rifles, Club is pretty much out of gas at 100.  Have you tried any of the better stuff out of your test rifle?  Maybe Lapua Midas+ or Eley Black?  All you need are a couple of groups of each.  Also, since this is a 14" twist barrel, have you tried the Aguila 60 grain load as a control?  We might learn something from that.  I have at least 1 box to contribute.

Trials:  Have you thought about BS any of the 60 grain Aguila bullets?  Might be I could furnish some.

Cases:  I have pulled a bunch of .22 Short bullets & looked at several kinds of cases.  I weighed them & looked at the priming.  That was an education in itself.  Depends on what you find inside, but you might decide to segregate by weight or the way primer compound is spread around. Please take notes & tell us what you find. I have a Waltz die and use the shell holder in my press and dykes to pull bullets.

Bullets:  Too many variables!  The surface area of bullets w/ lube grooves is greater than the Elcos & is different for each design.  If your fingers are like mine, there will be some lube that gets into the grooves no matter how careful you are.  That won't be uniform & could even unbalance the bullet.  I think you should start with the Elcos and do a bunch of tests with those before moving on. 

Matches:  The Tuesday Afternoon Schuetzen Verein (Redwood Gun Club, Arcata CA) will switch to 100 & 200 yards when the winter gallery league is over.  The annual Monica Lewinsky's 50th birthday match is 50 rounds from the bench at 100 yards.  We use the WSU gallery target, 2 shots at each of 25 bulls.  We're flexible on scheduling.  In early June, we shoot the Left Coast Bruce Garbe Memorial bench rest match.  50 shots at 200 yards.  .22 rimfire only.






  
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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #7 - Feb 12th, 2016 at 12:31pm
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great read,  keep it coming   art
  
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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #8 - Feb 12th, 2016 at 1:58pm
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waterman wrote on Feb 12th, 2016 at 1:43am:

Test ammo:  Never shot Federal, but I shoot Eley Club for gallery (50 feet & 25 yards) or for practice at 100.  In my 5 LR rifles, Club is pretty much out of gas at 100.  Have you tried any of the better stuff out of your test rifle?  Maybe Lapua Midas+ or Eley Black?  All you need are a couple of groups of each.  Also, since this is a 14" twist barrel, have you tried the Aguila 60 grain load as a control?  We might learn something from that.  I have at least 1 box to contribute.

Trials:  Have you thought about BS any of the 60 grain Aguila bullets?  Might be I could furnish some.

I have some Wolf Match that I'll try, both fixed and BSed. I'd be happy to try anything you have. As far as shooting the 60 grain Aguila bullets BSed, I think they would be to damaged after pulling

Cases:  I have pulled a bunch of .22 Short bullets & looked at several kinds of cases.  I weighed them & looked at the priming.  That was an education in itself.  Depends on what you find inside, but you might decide to segregate by weight or the way primer compound is spread around. Please take notes & tell us what you find. I have a Waltz die and use the shell holder in my press and dykes to pull bullets

That's a good idea but, at this point I'm just trying to find the accurate bullet and powder to start with, starting wit CCI cases There is so much to do and combo's to try.

Bullets:  Too many variables!  The surface area of bullets w/ lube grooves is greater than the Elcos & is different for each design.  If your fingers are like mine, there will be some lube that gets into the grooves no matter how careful you are.  That won't be uniform & could even unbalance the bullet.  I think you should start with the Elcos and do a bunch of tests with those before moving on

It's not hard to get the lube on evenly. There is only a coating on my fingers and it only adheres to the surface of the bullet, the coating on my fingers isn't enough to get into the grooves, at all. I will always test against my ELCO and at this point, the Lee. My next thing with the ELCO is to put a elliptical nose on it to increase the BC for subsonic. I believe that I've found the best length for the bullets, at .56, for now anyway

I'd love to come down to a shoot. Ferndale is one of my favorite places to visit, also. I'll see what I can do.
  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #9 - Apr 25th, 2016 at 3:07am
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Part two:

I've now got a little more shooting done with this rifle. I have shot it in two matches and finally got some chrono info.

The first match (3/26) wasn't horrible but, it wasn't very competitive with a 235 1c (ASSRA). It was about what you can expect with a target rifle, shooting standard velocity, fixed, domestic ammo.

Saturdays match (4/23) was much better. It shot all 24's and 25's but, had one score killing 22. The March score had five 23's in it. My April, ASSRA score was 242 4c and it scored 244 6c, ISSA. 

The conditions were tricky today and there were three 245 5c (ISSA) shot with some of the most competitive 22 RF rifles, on the West coast! 

I'm a big dissenter regard ISSA scoring. ISSA had their reasons for doing it that way (leaded edge) but, it really doesn't give a accurate score. I tried to re-instate ASSRA scoring at our club but, was out voted at this match. 

Now the best part of the match was, scored ASSRA I would have had, 242 4c, second place (third ISSA) was 241 3c and first place ISSA would have scored only 240 3c.

So, now, I'm off to a good basic starting point Smiley

Next month, I will have much more info, regarding how it scores. I'll be shooting a 240 shot  22 RF match.

As it stands, B'Eye is still the most accurate powder. The 14 twist is a little slow for my .56 long, 53 gr bullet. It doesn't tip at 1.7 gr but, shows a little tipping at 1.5 & 1.6. 

I used 1.6 gr in this last match and you can see some some slight tipping on some of the holes.

The March match was shot with 1.5 gr. I'm not sure that the increased accuracy is a result of the 1.6 gr charge or, if it's because I sized the bullets from .225, to .223. I did that, because it was to hard to BS at .225. My groove is a standard 22 RF at .222.

As I said, I'm only getting acceptable accuracy with B'Eye. Last Wed. I tested Ramshot Silhouette  and TiteGroup. Nothing near as good as B'Eye but, I found that I could get a ave  1329 fps with my 53 gr bullet, using 2.5 gr Silhouette.

The B'Eye load that I chronographed was 1.7 gr. I used both CCI & Fiocchi cases with the following results:

Fiocchi

1.7 gr, Ave 1170 fps
High 1183
Low 1138
ES 45
SD 15.5
Ave Divation 10.6

CCI
1.7 gr, Ave 1167
High 1173
Low 1151
ES 43
SD 13.5
Ave D 10.6

I only used the CCI cases at the match and those will be my standard cases.

I want to keep these loads subsonic, like the match ammo is, for the added wind drift advantage, and that is why I choose the 1.6 gr load

Frank
« Last Edit: Apr 25th, 2016 at 11:09am by frnkeore »  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #10 - May 30th, 2016 at 6:15pm
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As promised, these are my Spokane results. Things have improved overall. It may only be that the barrel is getting broke in.

In all, there have now been 160 shots, fired in matches, plus maybe and other 150 in working up loads and sighters.

The first two targets are from the Canadian Regional. As I remember, those where the worse conditions. I didn't get a picture of these match results so, I can't say how well I did in the match but, I believe it was mid-pack.

The second two targets are from the NW Regional and the best conditions of the matches, I did get a picture of those results, I was exactly in the middle 11th of 22 shooters. There was a lot of expensive 22 match ammo below where I shot.

Note, that there is one low shot in both of the NW targets. I'm sure thats a product of the load.

Frank

  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #11 - May 30th, 2016 at 6:22pm
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Next the compete resuts of the 100 shot Canadian BR Match. I didn't get a picture of those match results, either so, again, I don't know where I finished. Again, I think it was mid-pack, the conditions weren't the best.

Frank
  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #12 - May 30th, 2016 at 6:24pm
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Second 50 shots.

Note how consistant the scores are in this one.

Frank
  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #13 - Dec 7th, 2016 at 12:26am
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  The annual Monica Lewinsky's 50th birthday match is 50 rounds from the bench at 100 yards.    





Can you describe what the Monica Match is for us?
I"m thinking I might be able to arrange a road trip for our club, here in Michigan, to come and compete in this  outing.

Thanks,

Kcajeel


[/quote]
  

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Re: Breech Seating a 44 Stevens 22rf
Reply #14 - Dec 7th, 2016 at 7:15pm
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Beautiful rifle and a LOT of research. Do you thing there would be much difference if you had a forearm on it?
  
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