Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby (Read 3616 times)
stubbicatt
Ex Member


32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Feb 3rd, 2016 at 8:57am
Print Post  
Guys, I'm a little vexed. My F. Zika Winchester High Wall in 32-40 has presented me with some issues I just can't figure out.

When shooting breach seated 200 grain bullets with 13.8 grains of IMR 4227, it shoots great, no issues with extraction, though I do get blowby on the cases. It has a tapered throat, and is quite obviously intended to be used like this.

However, since the only game around here is lever action silhouette, I have loaded fixed ammo with the 200 grain Saeco tapered bullet seated long, so that it presses the bullet into the ballseat / throat area of the rifle. Using the same 13.8 grains of IMR 4227 load. It does shoot quite well with this ammo. Oh, and I only size the necks of the cases with a RCBS die, and open them to about .002" grip on the bullet with a BACo expander plug. All cases are trimmed to same length.

The issue is I still get blowby on the cases, but 2 out of 3 cases don't want to extract. Very sticky extraction.

Generally sticky extraction is a sign of high pressures, and blowby is a sign of the case not obdurating enough to seal the breach completely, due to low pressure. Yet I am seeing both of these phenomena, sticky or difficult extraction and blowby. Again, no sticky extraction when breach seating.

I don't care so much about blowby, as that just seems to be par for the course. The sticky extraction has me concerned as I don't want to bugger up my extractor whacking the lever forward to break cases loose.

I had thought maybe the combustion residue in the chamber from blowby might be working as some sort of adhesive? I have also thought to full length resize the cases to see if that changes anything? I am also considering backing off the powder about .5 grains to see if that changes anything?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: Feb 3rd, 2016 at 9:10am by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #1 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 9:06am
Print Post  
Blow Back - tight crimp or otherwise?
Sticky Extraction - Tight dirty chamber?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
stubbicatt
Ex Member


Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #2 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 9:08am
Print Post  
Thanks John Boy. I should add, no crimping on the bullets, and the case mouths remained flared a little bit.

Maybe it is a dirty chamber? Perhaps I'll take a chamber mop with me and wipe out the chamber between shots and see if that improves things?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Pentz
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline


Funf und Zwanzig mit den
Hut

Posts: 435
Location: Vancouver, WA
Joined: Sep 4th, 2014
Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #3 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 9:39am
Print Post  
I recall that Dell talks about blowby with 32-40 cases, and that the only solution seems to be flaring the case mouth.  It could be that the long taper of the case results in chronic incomplete obturation that can only be addressed by sealing the case mouth against the chamber, not the seating of the bullet against the lands.
  

ASSRA Member Yoostabe # 11497
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KAF
Ex Member


Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #4 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 9:42am
Print Post  
Measure the outside of the case at the web.  See if the ones sticking are a bit larger then the ones that don't.  If so resize the web area only.  A larger diameter caliber sizing die with the same size web will work.  30-30?

Oh you'll have to do this by running the case into the die without the case holder and knock it out with a brass punch, or similar material.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #5 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 9:49am
Print Post  
As far as blow by there are a couple of things that you can do when breech seating. First bell the case mouth until you can feel resistance for about a quarter inch that way you will have good contact with the chamber walls. The other thing that you can do is put a wad in the case mouth now orient the powders to the mouth of the case put the case in and shoot. You will probably have to increase your load a couple of clicks to get back to your ideal velocity. 
  On the case sticking I get the same thing when I forget to seat a bullet and put in the cartridge. You get a low pop and then when I go to extract the case I get hard extraction. 
My guess is that you are not shooting with enough pressure as 13.8 seems low when about 14.5 is the usual given charge.

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 12347
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #6 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 10:47am
Print Post  
Had two rifles with similar problems. One was sticking at the base. The other had a ring at the end of the chamber. 

Completely cover the cases that stick with a black Sharpie/felt marker. Fire in your clean dry chamber. Burrs in the chamber if any will show on the cases after extraction. Look down the side of the case in light, might be a small ring in the chamber. Measure the mouth of the case then compare to the neck a quarter inch back. 

Just remembered. Had another one that stuck on the extractor. Took me a while to figure that one out. Extractor was to long into the chamber.
         
              Joe.
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 7658
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #7 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 11:44am
Print Post  
I also had a "rung" chamber (using a filler). Do as Joe says and shoot the same case 3 to 5 times. With mine, after 3 firing, I had to use the cleaning rod to get the case out. It will show a diffenent shiney spot, if there is a ring.

Regarding the blow by, what I do is chamfer the case mouth, with a regualar 82 deg counter sink, almost to the outer edge of the case mouth. It doesn't always stop it completely though but, helps a lot. 

As a thought, you could also outside turn the case for say 1/8", until the brass is only .005 thick.But, it maybe better to just increase the powder charge to 14.5 gr.

If you have a bullet with a larger base band, say .324/5, that could help seal the chamber, too.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
calledflyer
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3970
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #8 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 12:30pm
Print Post  
I wish I'd have asked this very question of the guys around here. Would have saved a lot of gunpowder and lead. I have slowly figured most of the things mentioned by them, and bit by bit my fixed loads have become a source of some pride. Of course, I had fun wasting all that stuff,  to compensate.
If you need to size the base of a case, I think a .38-55 die would be best after the expander is removed. The other dies would raise hell with the size of your neck.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff Houck
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 78
Location: Pocatello
Joined: Jan 11th, 2014
Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #9 - Feb 3rd, 2016 at 12:59pm
Print Post  
To help solve the sticky brass extraction problem, inking up the case with a black felt tip permanent marking pen and then cambering the fired case will show where the case is sticking. Often after enough firings a case will have expanded enough (even with low pressure loads) to begin sticking. Also check that over all length is correct. It may well be that it's time to full length size your cases. It the quickest and cheapest thing to do so I make it the first thing I try. 


It may also be that the brass has become work hardened to the point that they no longer release the chamber walls. Try annealing the brass to correct this. Again this is an inexpensive check that may solve the problem. Flaring the case mouth to center and seal the case in the chamber is always a good loading practice. 


I ran your 13.8gr. of IMR4227 and a 200gr. bullet seated .2" in the case in Quickload and came up with 11,000 psi. This is about 1/2 of what BP would generate. Stiff brass probably won't obturate at this low of pressure, so annealing the brass to a very soft state may be enough to allow it to obterate enough to seal the camber and prevent the blow back that crushes the case. 

A 14.5gr. load of IMR4227 showed an increase in pressure to 12,132psi. Still well below BP pressures.

Hope this helps, jh
  

Jeff Houck
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
bruce moulds
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 290
Location: the antipodes
Joined: Mar 14th, 2015
Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #10 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 5:42am
Print Post  
neck annealing can reduce blowback.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

ventum est amicus meus
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
stubbicatt
Ex Member


Re: 32-40 random sticky extraction with blowby
Reply #11 - Feb 4th, 2016 at 6:13am
Print Post  
Thanks fellas. I'll FL size these cases and see if I get better results. Some I will boost the load to 14.5 and see where that gets me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint