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Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? (Read 11604 times)

.22-5-40 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 820 Joined: Feb 13^th, 2010	Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 1:45am	Print Post
	Hello, I have an original Ballard A-1 Mid-Range chambered in .40-63 Everlasting. I was wondering just how important is bullet nose shape if shooting is confined to 200 thru 500yds? I am kind of leaning to the original Postell nose shape but wondering if an elliptical nose would give any better results? Bullets are paper-patched @ 330grs. probably 20-1 lead/tin alloy. Swiss 1 1/2 black to be used. Bore dia. (land-land) is .404 with a groove dia. of .409. A patched bullet of .4045 is a nice snug push thru bore, while one of .405 feels like a very tight patched muzzleloader going thru..but patch is undamaged. Thanks!


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2938 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #1 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 7:45am	Print Post
	You might try the Shiloh Sharps forum and/or (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) forum. There are many more PP'ers over there than on a Schuetzen oriented forum. Try the "Black Powder" on Shiloh.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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Deadeye Bly Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1103 Location: Stephens City Joined: Feb 25^th, 2011	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #2 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 8:20am	Print Post
	Nose shape is not as important from 200-500 yards as it becomes at longer distances. Even a flat point as long as it is no more than 1/3 the diameter of the bullet will work well. You did not state what your twist is. For longer ranges you will want as heavy a bullet as you can to shoot accurately. You will probably be limited by bullet length due to the twist in your rifle so a fatter nose shape will get you a heavier bullet.


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shovel80 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 896 Location: Sonora,CA Joined: Jun 6^th, 2011	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #3 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 10:40am	Print Post
	Have a look at a 740 Saeco.... Terry

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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 17449 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #4 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 10:47am	Print Post
	I use the Lyman Snover 400 grain .410" in mine #2640663. Works very well for my Ballard, and my Hepburn.

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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2509 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #5 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 11:25am	Print Post
	While not paper patched, I have shot both the blunt nosed 400gr Saeco #740 and the 400gr "Kidwell" money bullet in my .40-65 on silhouettes. The money bullet shot a couple of minutes better elevation wise at the rams ( but it also moves about 40fps faster at the muzzle), and seems a little less wind sensitive. Either nose can be competitive, but I like the money best. In midrange I have only used the money bullet as if it needs a few percent less windage then it can potentially give me a point or two if I make a wind call error. With your light bullet you'll be more wind sensitive regardless of the nose you choose. Chris.


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oneatatime Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4211 Location: Rocky Mountains Joined: Oct 30^th, 2011	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #6 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 12:48pm	Print Post
	To prevent nose slumping in a long nosed bullet you might have to go to 16 to 1.


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 12071 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #7 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 1:19pm	Print Post
	How does one know when a bullet suffers "nose slumping" ? How is it I watched Ron Long win a thousand yard match with a .40 400 gr spitzer. How is it I have shot the same spitzer out to 1000 yards and placed? Joe.
	« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 1:24pm by westerner »
	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #8 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 1:39pm	Print Post
	Always wondered about what psi pressure level was required to produce nose slumping. Have seen the figure a few times that the unit pressure required to extrude pure lead is about 30,000 psi, and about 50,000 psi is required to extrude 3-4% antimonial lead. Of course, acceleration occurs at a faster rate than extrusion.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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Cat_Whisperer Frequent Elocutionist Offline No 1, 9.3x74R Posts: 3965 Location: Mountains of Virginia Joined: Apr 17^th, 2004	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #9 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 3:32pm	Print Post
	westerner wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 1:19pm: How does one know when a bullet suffers "nose slumping" ? ... Joe. one has to measure it the instant it exits from the muzzle

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bruce moulds Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 290 Location: the antipodes Joined: Mar 14^th, 2015	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #10 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 3:51pm	Print Post
	nose slumping canbe seen on recovered bullets by how far up the bullet rifling marks appear. with black powder, it is not so much about pressure as shock transmitted to the bullet.blach has lower pressures than smokeless, but more bumpup. the spitzer nose has lower drag at supersonic speeds than money or elliptical noses, which is why smokeless scheutzen shooters often prefer it. in the transonic zone, elliptical or metford/money noses have less drag, as they do at subsonic speeds. reduced nose drag translates to greater stability for the same twist, as the centre of pressure moves back closer to the centre of mass, thus reducing the overturning moment. keep safe, bruce.

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.22-5-40 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 820 Joined: Feb 13^th, 2010	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #11 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 5:21pm	Print Post
	Thanks for replys of good info. What custom mould maker would you recommend for either ellipitical or Postell nose shape @ 330grs?


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2509 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #12 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 5:57pm	Print Post
	Steve Brooks has made a couple of elliptical molds for me and they are well made. Chris.


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7549 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #13 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 8:55pm	Print Post
	Nose shape is very important at subsonic velocitys but the subsonic nose shape isn't good at supersonic velocitys. Basically, you need as sharpe a nose shape as you can get to push the shock wave in super flight, to reduce the amount of power it takes to push the shock wave. Subsonic requires a nose shape that allows the nose not to loose it's air boundery layer and a smooth leading edge RADIUS is what that takes. Elipital shapes are best for that but, a spitzer with a radius point, isn't far off. Here is something to consider regarding starting velocitys above the speed of sound and down range results. The bullet in these results, has a BC of .44 Yd Drift Velocity Mach# ToF 0 In MOA 1286.0 1.152 0.000 200 7.1 3.4 1100.0 0.985 0.507 400 26.7 6.4 986.0 0.883 1.086 600 56.3 9.0 908.2 0.813 1.721 800 94.6 11.3 846.9 0.759 2.406 1000 141.4 13.5 795.1 0.712 3.138 0 1200.0 1.075 0.000 200 6.7 3.3 1046.8 0.938 0.539 400 24.7 5.9 951.3 0.852 1.142 600 52.1 8.3 881.4 0.789 1.798 800 88.0 10.5 824.4 0.738 2.502 1000 132.2 12.6 775.3 0.694 3.254 0 1100.0 0.985 0.000 200 5.8 2.8 985.7 0.883 0.579 400 21.5 5.1 907.5 0.813 1.215 600 46.0 7.3 845.8 0.758 1.900 800 78.9 9.4 793.7 0.711 2.633 1000 120.0 11.5 747.8 0.670 3.414 0 985.0 0.882 0.000 200 4.7 2.2 906.4 0.812 0.637 400 18.1 4.3 844.4 0.756 1.324 600 39.9 6.4 791.8 0.709 2.058 800 70.1 8.4 745.5 0.668 2.840 1000 108.8 10.4 703.8 0.630 3.670 0 900.0 0.806 0.000 200 4.3 2.0 838.3 0.751 0.693 400 16.9 4.0 785.7 0.704 1.433 600 37.8 6.0 739.1 0.662 2.221 800 67.4 8.0 697.3 0.625 3.057 1000 105.9 10.1 659.8 0.591 3.944
	« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 9:10pm by frnkeore »
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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7549 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: Bullet nose shape for 200-500yds.? Reply #14 - Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 9:04pm	Print Post
	Note that the ToF is .8 slower between 1286 & 900 fps but, the wind drift is 35" less @ 900 fps @ 1000 yd. So, based on the ballistics, it might be better to speed up the twist, than increase the velocity. The results were done with a bullet of .44 BC but, it's probably off a bit, because the BC, using a elipital nose, would also have a lower BC in the first 200 yds, while it's going supersonic. Frank
	« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2016 at 9:11pm by frnkeore »
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