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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? (Read 14243 times)
bohemianway
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So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Jan 8th, 2016 at 12:41pm
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Everyone yaps about the cast actions and what they can or cannot withstand. What I would like to see is what actually fails when over stressed. This should not include those instances where the barrels came apart since that is not an action failure even if the action came unglued it was not from a typical pressure event for the cartridge involved. If the front of the action falls off without injury it is no huge issue. If the top of the breech block breaks of and goes through your head, not so good. I have seen several other single shot failures that all tend to be rather benign except to the action itself. 

Just looking for enlightenment,
Charles
  
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Kurt_701
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #1 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 12:58pm
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Here are the pictures of a Ballard cast action rifle.
  

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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #2 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 1:09pm
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That would have been a bad day!
  
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #3 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 1:27pm
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Is the breech block on one of these Ballards a cast part as well? The one in the photos that's blown up sure seems like it exhibits the signs of a broken casting. And, is the forged reciever the beneficary of a forged block as well?
I know little of these rifles so I'm just asking to learn about them.
  
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Dales
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #4 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 1:53pm
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Kurt
In the case of the action you show in the pics. was there any damage to the barrel ?
Was this an action failure or a complete failure do to an over load ?

Dales
  
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frnkeore
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #5 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 2:01pm
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At the risk of starting a disruptive discussion. The barrel was relined and a large over charge, shot it it. The barrel failed and blew the rest of it into what you see. Wounding the woman that shot it severely.

Although the loader of the ammo, said he didn't double charge the case, what you see can only be, at lest that.

Frank
  

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bohemianway
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #6 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 2:04pm
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That looks like a catastrophic failure due to massive overload that even a forged receiver would look similar due to the barrel failing at the extractor cut. Now if this was the mode of failure for a standard 45-70 load than it would answer my question. But with the stock damage I am convinced it was a failure that even a highwall or Ruger #1 would have exhibited.

Charles
  
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bohemianway
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #7 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 2:12pm
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My concern is that I have been shooting for years a 38-55 #2 cast action (nickel plated) with both black and 16gr 4759 with a 250gr and it shows no sign of stress. Of course it could simply be dumb luck and that is the question. They are running 44 Magnums in clone 1873's.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #8 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 8:51pm
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Every failure I've heard of was linked to some error by the owner in loading ammo. And every one was chambered in a caliber the #2 shouldn't have been chambered in. They were also shooting reloads, and questions arise if the loads might have been double charged.
I have a #2 in .32-40 that is stamped .32 Long on the barrel. The previous owner said it was a .32-40 when he got it, and that was in the 1960's. I bought it much later, and it had seen many decades of shooting, and always breechseated ammo. I've only breechseated and fired it a small amount, so can't say much yet. But it's still very tight, and has good headspacing, and a great bore. Oddly, the .32 Long bore slugs to .317", and a 1:15" twist. Odd for a Ballard that was .32 Long.
Over nearly 40 years of collecting and shooting Ballard rifles, the only crack I've seen was actually on a forged frame, and it was in the inside corner of the action, where it transitions to vertical, where the barrel threads in. No idea how that happened, as the owner didn't even notice it until I pointed it out. The gun was a .45-70, and had a fairly new barrel, so it could have been heavy loads, or maybe even damage when the barrel was installed. He stopped shooting it, and found another receiver to put everything into.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #9 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 9:03pm
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At Raton about 1999, a double charged Ballard popped the heads off the screws that hold the clam shell together. One hit a the shooter on bench immediately to the left in the face.  Lucky it didn't put an eye out  Cry  The owner took it home, got new screws on it and shot it the next day.
  

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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #10 - Jan 8th, 2016 at 9:13pm
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The Civil War era cast actions crack at the corners of the frame at the back of the breech block where it angles down into the frame. This is from 45 Colt or 44/40 black powder loads. These frames are much thinner and lighter than the Marlin era cast frames.
  
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #11 - Jan 9th, 2016 at 10:29pm
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Every cast steel Ballard action is over 100 years old and we have no way to determine how that action has been used (or abused).  And, like all steel, a cast Ballard action is susceptible to repetitive-stress and over-stress metal fatigue as well as other issues such as nitrogen embrittlement. 

In short, we have no way of knowing how close any given cast action Ballard is to a catastrophic end-of-life event even under "normal" use, much less an abnormal (overcharge) use.

My cast Ballard is comfortably re-chambered in .22 LR.

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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #12 - Jan 9th, 2016 at 11:06pm
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Ballard actions, even cast ones, make wonderful 22 rimfires. I have an old #3 cast action gallery rifle in 22 Short that I'm shooting in a match tomorrow morning, and I'm sure it'll do just fine. I don't know why anyone would want to barrel one up in a center fire caliber?  Huh
  
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harry_eales
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #13 - Jan 10th, 2016 at 1:06am
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Year after year I read about Ballard's that are either have Cast receivers or Forged receivers. Now if memory serves me no one has, in relation to the cast frames stated cast WHAT? Iron or steel?

Certainly the Forged actions would have been a form of steel, but the earlier actions, just what were they made of?  Cast Iron is notoriously brittle and shatters easily under a hard blow or pressure, yet Cannon were made using it. Cast Steel is much less likely to do the same. Back in the day when cast Ballard actions were made there was little to guide the maker as to detecting flaws in the metal, slag, or air pockets trapped within the material so as to be invisible to the human eye. Did the manufacturers of the cast actions even have quality control in the 1860's. Today we have many tests available to us mostly electronic that were unheard of or even dreamt about in the 19th.C.

My own experience if these rifles is minimal, I've only ever seen two of them in some 50 years of shooting. But British target and game shooters tended to gravitate to their favourite British Gun Maker and we had plenty of them to fill the demand. So Ballard's are rare here.

Does anyone know of someone checking out the metal that cast action Ballard's were made of? I and I'm sure others here on this Forum would be as interested as I would be.

Harry.
« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2016 at 1:12am by »  
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Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard?
Reply #14 - Jan 10th, 2016 at 1:20am
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They were made of malleable cast iron. That's why there's a hollow area under the barrel shank bore hole. 

I have several cast Ballards in centerfire. None have failed.  Shocked They are time bombs, grenades..... blah blah blah........... OMG..... LOOKOUT!!! HELP, HELP, SAVE US! HELP!!!!!!

             Joe.
  

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