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So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? (Read 14236 times)

uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #30 - Jan 10^th, 2016 at 9:32pm	Print Post
	frnkeore wrote on Jan 10^th, 2016 at 11:49am: Quote: Soft, brittle steel is a bit of an oxymoron. Steel is either one or the other. Yes, it sounds odd but, leaded, sulphured steels, exhibit that "quality". Soft steels are very malleable and have good elongation but, 1137, 1144 and anything with a L in the number aren't, especially in the cold. You WILL NOT find any L steels in stressed aircraft parts or in quality barrels. There have been many catastrophic barrel failures with 12L14 and 1137/44. Muzzle loading (low pressure) had many failures in the early 80's when I shot that sport. Frank I'm not aware of that characteristic of 11 and L steels. More reading for me to do. I am aware that the rate at which stress is applied has an influence on the toughness. e.g. the Charpy test is an impact, while the tension test for elongation and tensile strength is slow. I wish I had another lifetime to become really conversant with ferrous metallurgy. Phil

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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11439 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #31 - Jan 10^th, 2016 at 10:57pm	Print Post
	The failure mechanism of a cast Ballard is a human with a defective smart system. Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7250 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #32 - Jan 10^th, 2016 at 11:08pm	Print Post
	westerner wrote on Jan 10^th, 2016 at 10:57pm: The failure mechanism of a cast Ballard is a human with a defective smart system. Joe. Agreed! Frank

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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #33 - Jan 11^th, 2016 at 1:42am	Print Post
	frnkeore wrote on Jan 10^th, 2016 at 11:08pm: westerner wrote on Jan 10^th, 2016 at 10:57pm: The failure mechanism of a cast Ballard is a human with a defective smart system. Joe. Agreed! Frank I never, ever load a case for mine without looking at the primer. If someone walks up and starts talking, I dump the powder or look at the primer and charge the case. Gotta eliminate that defective human cpu from the equation

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16039 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #34 - Jan 11^th, 2016 at 11:10am	Print Post
	Schuetzenmiester wrote on Jan 11^th, 2016 at 1:42am: frnkeore wrote on Jan 10^th, 2016 at 11:08pm: westerner wrote on Jan 10^th, 2016 at 10:57pm: The failure mechanism of a cast Ballard is a human with a defective smart system. Joe. Agreed! Frank I never, ever load a case for mine without looking at the primer. If someone walks up and starts talking, I dump the powder or look at the primer and charge the case. Gotta eliminate that defective human cpu from the equation That's a good habit to have! I wont take phone calls, or visit with friends if they drop by when I'm reloading. I simply stop, and come back to it later, rather than be interrupted.

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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #35 - Jan 11^th, 2016 at 12:30pm	Print Post
	That is a nice option to have, but when running matches and shooting, you will be interrupted. Deal with it or make a choice between running matches or shooting them.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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harry_eales Ex Member	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #36 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 1:17am	Print Post
	Phil, Thanks for your explanations and what happens to various metals when heat treated. I know now why a gunsmith friend of mine in the USA wont re-barrel and chamber a cast action Ballard to anything other than .22RF with a recommendation that only standard light loads be used. Harry.


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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #37 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 5:41am	Print Post
	Quote: Phil, Thanks for your explanations and what happens to various metals when heat treated. I know now why a gunsmith friend of mine in the USA wont re-barrel and chamber a cast action Ballard to anything other than .22RF with a recommendation that only standard light loads be used. Harry. Harry! You're not under water??? I think your friend is carrying it a BIT far, but as a commercial smith I'm sure he's thinking of his own safety. Nobody is likely to overload a .22 rimfire and then call a lawyer when the gun blows up. Believe it or not, I have a cast action that was built up by Sedgley, with a .22 Lovell barrel on it. Apparently this wasn't unique in the early days of the Lovell. Even Hervey Lovell himself is reported to have built one or two Ballards. I'm not about to risk the gun by loading to typical Lovell pressures, however. I've shot only cast bullet loads, and not many, either. Frank deHaas wrote a pretty good piece on how to make Ballards work. It's in his first Single Shot Rifles book, and he reprised it in one of the later ones.

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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2257 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #38 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 12:02pm	Print Post
	Schuetzenmiester wrote on Jan 11^th, 2016 at 12:30pm: That is a nice option to have, but when running matches and shooting, you will be interrupted. Deal with it or make a choice between running matches or shooting them. I find that even when practicing I am often interrupted, mostly because people are curious about my strange looking rifles. I tip each case upside down before adding powder. I like to do the deprime, reprime, and powder charge all in one step without interruption. I figure anyone who wants to talk can wait the 15 seconds it takes to do this. Chris.


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bisaacson Full Member Offline Posts: 170 Location: Kailua Joined: Sep 1^st, 2009	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #39 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 1:37pm	Print Post
	An excessive application of concerted ignorance and/or dumbness is a common failure mode for many mechanisms. I was once sent a nice looking No. 2 cast frame Ballard marked 32 Long that had been rechambered to 32-40. The bore was .3065". I returned it with a letter explaining why this wasn't the best idea. I finally found a No. 2 in 32 Long which is quite happy with BP pressure loads, and which would probably keep functioning without failure as long as there was lead, powder and primers to be had - if I don't get dumber or more ignorant than I already am.


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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11439 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #40 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 1:46pm	Print Post
	bisaacson wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 1:37pm: An excessive application of concerted ignorance and/or dumbness is a common failure mode for many mechanisms. I was once sent a nice looking No. 2 cast frame Ballard marked 32 Long that had been rechambered to 32-40. The bore was .3065". I returned it with a letter explaining why this wasn't the best idea. I finally found a No. 2 in 32 Long which is quite happy with BP pressure loads, and which would probably keep functioning without failure as long as there was lead, powder and primers to be had - if I don't get dumber or more ignorant than I already am. Sounds to me like your smart system is in good shape at this time and you do not require assistance, at this time. Looks like your decision making system is in good shape as well. As you get older your systems will begin to fail. Get used to it because "it is what it is." Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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FITZ Oldtimer Offline REGARDS Posts: 917 Location: MASSACHUSETTS Joined: Apr 16^th, 2004	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #41 - Jan 13^th, 2016 at 7:50pm	Print Post
	It is real simple. The Cast actions were built for small low Pressure calibers. And the castings themselves were not very good. large voids and off center barrel thread locations showing nearly no support on the under side. Building these into heavy caliber rifles using modern smokeless powders is courting disaster. You do realize I believe, we only are issued one set of Eyes. And some of the other equipment we have is also precious. HTH, BELIEVE. REGARDS, FITZ.

	FITZ
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fallingblock ASSRA Board Member Offline Posts: 633 Location: Wisconsin Joined: Apr 16^th, 2004	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #42 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 12:11am	Print Post
	Fritz, I agree with you. The cast actions fine if left alone in original calibers and shot with original level loads. If the rifle is going to be re-barreled they make great .22RF rifles. The Ballard castings have lots of flaws. If you find a cast action re-barreled to 32-40 or in anything else you do not know what else was done with the action such as re-hardining or welding flaws and cracks. I will dig out Franks Zika's cast 1/2 action it shows how little support is under the threads. Frank said cast actions make good .22RF and that is all he would build one to. One of his favorite sayings was "you always want to be able to count to 21 at the end of the day." I would add having two eyes is good too. Cheers, Laurie

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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11439 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #43 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 1:58am	Print Post
	I'm going to keep on shooting mine. Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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westerner Frequent Elocutionist Offline deleted posts and threads record holder. Posts: 11439 Location: Why, out West of course Joined: May 29^th, 2006	Re: So, What is the failure mechanism for a Ballard? Reply #44 - Jan 14^th, 2016 at 2:02am	Print Post
	bisaacson wrote on Jan 13^th, 2016 at 1:37pm: An excessive application of concerted ignorance and/or dumbness is a common failure mode for many mechanisms. I was once sent a nice looking No. 2 cast frame Ballard marked 32 Long that had been rechambered to 32-40. The bore was .3065". I returned it with a letter explaining why this wasn't the best idea. I finally found a No. 2 in 32 Long which is quite happy with BP pressure loads, and which would probably keep functioning without failure as long as there was lead, powder and primers to be had - if I don't get dumber or more ignorant than I already am. Or, if it had been sent to me, and it was a nice rifle, I would have shot it a lot. Joe.

	A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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