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majorfs45
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Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Dec 22nd, 2015 at 1:12pm
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We know the members of the 1874 Creedmoor team that start the US on it way of being the greatest shooting group in the world from the photo of them.  But do we have the other members of the 1875, 1876, 1877 and 1880 teams on record somewhere?
1974 team:  
Team Captain: Gen. G.W. Wingate. 
Brig. Gen. Thomas F. Dakin
Col. John Bodine
Lt. C. H.A. Gildersleeve
Lieut. H. Fulton
L.L. Hepburn
G.W. Yale
Col. E.S. Sanford (reserve)
I.T.B. Collins (reserve)


  
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majorfs45
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #1 - Dec 22nd, 2015 at 5:13pm
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I think I have come up with the American team members that were America V.S. Ireland matches in addition to the original 1874 team shot of course at the Creedmoor range:  Scores that year were Americans 934 Ireland 931

1875  at Dollymount, Ireland
Dakin, Gildersleeve, Bodine, Fulton, Coleman and Yale.
Scores   Americans:   968   Ireland:   929

1876  at Creedmoor
Dakin, Rathbone, Allen, Weber, Fulton and Farwell
Scores   Americans: 1,165   Ireland: 1,154

1880 at Dollymount, Ireland
J.F. Clark, H. Fisher, R. Rathbone, W.M. Farrow and J.F. Brown
Scores   Americans: 1,292  Ireland:  1,280

Note that the scores keep going up each year on both sides of the water except for Ireland in year 1875.   
What a set of rilfemen they all were.
  
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Old-Win
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #2 - Dec 22nd, 2015 at 5:15pm
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If you're interested in the Creedmoor matches, you will be interested in this posted by our friend David Minshall.

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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #3 - Dec 22nd, 2015 at 7:41pm
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Absolutely a bunch of beautiful rifles! Sure looks a lot like Rons collection. I bet a few did make the trip across the pond!

Richard
  

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majorfs45
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #4 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 11:07am
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That article is an interesting read for sure, Old-Win.  Thanks for sharing the link!
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #5 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 12:22pm
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What a great era! When shooters were the elite of sportsmen, and shooting matches like these were the "super bowl" of the time!
Even indoor matches of that era were heavily attended by both shooters and the public, with big prize money, and lots of press coverage! 
How I wish the sport could have maintained that level of interest, and respect!
  

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Old-Win
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #6 - Dec 23rd, 2015 at 12:50pm
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Can anybody identify the 4th rifle down on the left in the second picture?  Maybe it's just the angle but I don't recognize it?  Bob
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #7 - Dec 24th, 2015 at 5:35pm
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in part the scores went up because the targets changed, with the smaller bull having an extra point .
this is described in the book "long range rifle shooting" by the editor of forest and stream, and rod and gun.
the book can be read online free.
keep safe,
bruce.
« Last Edit: Dec 24th, 2015 at 5:54pm by bruce moulds »  

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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #8 - Dec 24th, 2015 at 7:31pm
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Old Win,
I think it is a D.S. Cole.  Have only run across one or two but seem to recall one being in John Ambers collection that sold back in 1986.
  
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #9 - Dec 25th, 2015 at 12:05pm
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Old-Win, I have the Catalog. That Rifle was sold in the Amber Auction. It is described as "Superb Unknown SS Target Rifle"
47 1/2 inch overall with a 32" .40 Cal Barrel with raised rib at the breech. Only Markings an Engraved  PATd. OCT 13/1885' at the top rear of the action. Sold at Auction for $2900.00. I was there and was to young and did not know enough at the time to recognize what was going by. Did buy a Sharps Borchardt though,  Paneled 45X 2 7/8"  that I still own. HTH Regards, FITZ. Smiley
  

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ResearchPress
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #10 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 4:06am
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majorfs45 wrote on Dec 22nd, 2015 at 5:13pm:
I think I have come up with the American team members that were America V.S. Ireland matches in addition to the original 1874 team shot of course at the Creedmoor range:


You've missed S.I. Scott from the US team at Dollymount in 1880.

For completness besides the US Vs Ireland matches there were also:

1876 at Creedmoor for the Centennial Trophy (later known as Palma Trophy)
America, Australia, Canada, Ireland and Scotland
USA: Allen, Bodine, Dakin, Farwell, Fulton, Gildersleeve, Rathbone, Weber
Scores: America 1577+1549=3126, Ireland 1582+1522=3104, Scotland 1586+1477=3063, Australia 1545+1517=3062, Canada 1490+1433=2923

1877 at Creedmoor for the Centennial Trophy
USA, Great Britain
USA: Allen, Blydenburgh, Bruce, Dakin, Hyde, Jackson, Jewell, Weber
Scores: America 1655+1679=3334, GB 1629+1613=3242

1878 at Creedmoor
There were no foreign competitors for the 'Palma Trophy' and the Americans fired the match unopposed. A storm struck at 1000 yards on the second day and this distance wasn't completed.
USA: Brown, Clark, Dwight, Gerrish, Jackson, Rathbone, Rockwell, Sumner
Scores: America 1660+incomplete

1880 at Wimbledon, England
Unofficial match USA vs GB following the Dollymount match.
USA: Brown, Dudley, Gerrish, Hyde, Jackson, Laird, Rockwell, Scott
Scores: America 1568, Great Britain 1647

With regards to scores and as was pointed out above, targets changed. 1874 and 1875 matches were shot on the square target with a bull's eye scoring 4, centre scoring 3 and outer scoring 2. The 'bull' was 3' square. From 1876 the targets changed to circular and the 3' dia. bull scored 5, centre 4, inner 3 and outer 2.


More recently I have been researching the international matches between the US National Guard and the British Rifle Volunteers, using military breech loading rifles. In a few days I will have brief biographies of all the competitors (Teams of 12 each year 1882 & 1883) added to my (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links).

David
« Last Edit: Dec 26th, 2015 at 5:25am by ResearchPress »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #11 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 9:59am
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I've always wondered why LL Hepburn wasn't a team shooter later on? From what I've read he was a very good shooter. Was it perhaps his leaving Remington, since they supplied half the rifles? Maybe John Marlin wasn't keen on him shooting for or with a Remington after going to work for Marlin? If so, then wondered why he didn't compete with a Marlin Ballard?
  

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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #12 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 9:46pm
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Even though the target scoring on the targets were different, look at the scoring.  Out of 270 shots, 221 were bulleyes, 41 centers,  7 inners, one outer with absolutely no misses!  Just an amazing shooting performance by the 1880 American team!  So amazing, we are still talking about it!
  
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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #13 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:22am
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Undoubtedly they were great marksmen - that's why they were selected for international teams. Just trying to help people understand why scores leapt up after the 1874/75 matches.

Ireland were pretty close to the US team in 1880 and made 216 bull'e-eyes, 41 centres, 12 inners, no outers, 1 miss. For the US, Scott at 800yd, and Clark and Rathbone at 900yd made maximum scores, while Fenton and Millner for Ireland made maximum scores at 800yd. 

At the Centennial Match of 1876 at Creedmoor, J.K. Millner of Ireland scored fifteen bull's-eyes at 1,000 yards for an unprecedented maximum score of 75 x 75. His shooting career was long and in the 1908 London Olympics, where shooting events were held at Bisley, he won the 1000 yard Match Rifle gold medal with a score of 98x100. 

The 1880 US vs Ireland International Long Range match was the fired fired entirely with breech loaders. GB shooters were slow to adopt the breech loader for match rifle shooting despite the various defeats during the 1870s against American Teams. It was not until 1881 that the (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) (home countries international teams of 8 from England, Ireland and Scotland) was shot entirley with breech loaders.

David
« Last Edit: Dec 27th, 2015 at 11:16am by ResearchPress »  

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Re: Creedmoor team members of the 1874, 1875, 1876,
Reply #14 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:38pm
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The history of these rifles, and the men who shot them is one of the reasons I began liking single shots in general. I never owned a long range target rifle, not even very close, but each bit of the history of these men, matches and rifles that comes my way makes me more fond of the entire single shot story. Thanks to all who chime in on both of these fine threads. 
I once held a rifle that had belonged to Virgil Earp, but I'd trade that pleasure for a chance to handle one of the rifles our shooters won one of these matches using.
  
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