OK.  A real test is needed.

When I get to it in the next several weeks.

Fill the pot with 20 lbs 20:1, cast at test ingot.

Cast 10 lbs of bullets in one session, record biginning and ending temperatures and bullet weights.

Cast another test ingot.

Take beginning and ending ingots in to work and have them assayed to content.

Please lets all re-read my multiple posts before cutting my typing fingers off and while we do, refer back to the context of the statements.

frnkeore

corerftech wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 10:24am:


Per the above quote: Oxides being fluxed "FULLY" (i.e. reduced!) back into base metal condition is BS. We have not the ability to remove all oxides. And unless you want two inch thick crap on your pot, you skim occasionally. Therefore you Lose Tin!

Refer to a great article by a guru that is well documented s being the man in cast bullet analysis, Glen Fryxell; (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

&

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

I suppose if you NEVER SKIM, you NEVER LOSE. Thats my problem, I can't help but skim sometimes. Additionally I stated that antimony loss occurred with the oxide skimming. Now if you'd like to change the subject matter to TIN/LEAD compounds only that have little to zero BHN controls employed since they are NOT HEAT TREATABLE and are not precipitation hardened alloys that CHANGE IN BHN dramatically, I'm all game here. We can always just argue about BHN of pure lead, that will be fruitful too. What happens to an alloy of LEAD and LEAD, after it oxidizes and then is reduced back a few times........ it can't change. So is 20:1, 25:1, 30:1. Be advised that each ratio is the reduction of at least an ounce per 10 lb pot, of tin!! AN OUNCE!!!! Ive never skimmed an ounce, not a half ounce. continued....

My ALMOST last reply:

For the record: In post 17, I stated LEAD ANTIMONY ALLOYS 
Stated from 30:1 to 20:1 lead tin alloy shift, which has a differing HARDNESS (wait for it.... the original thread and title has to do with HARDNESS, not WEIGHT!!) would likely NOT BE DISCERNABLE in SHOOTING. Meaning an ENORMOUS shift of tin upwards of 2 ounces per 10 lbs disappeared, you'd not notice a difference in shooting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the relative BHN would change proportional to the shift, notably.
No mention of weight. Please someone argue that when you exhale you actually empty your lungs! Please!! I suppose that a perfect bullet master could mitigate all oxides but Ive never walked on water. Id like to meet that master caster in person. Im sure walking on water is fun.... I'm not there yet. Ill ask how far we can take my post out of context??

frnkeore:

Can you tell me that once you have reduced your melt fully (the walking on water scenario- utter perfection in chemistry), did you at that moment cast your full pot into bullets? No. therefore oxidation which is continuous and from top to bottom in the pot, occurs again forming oxides, which DONT GO INTO YOUR BULLETS, further reducing the ALLOY COMPOSITION in a non-proportional rate for each component!!!

For the record: Post 19, I state that for air cooled alloys there is not enough BHN swing to WORRY ABOUT and mention 2 BHN as a quantity of shift!! Not WEIGHT, NOT DIAMETER!! How far can we take my post out of context?? And anyone want to argue heat treatment of alloys, phase changes, eutectic, precipitation?? Negative.... and thats because you all digressed the post to 20:1 tin, non-aging (again I SAID LEAD ANTIMONY ALLOYS, TIN OXIDE SKIMMING AND ANTIMONY LOSS WITH THAT SKIMMING AND INCOMPLETE REDUCTION during fluxing.) Asking again, how far can we take my posts out of context??

the only viable on topic question asked was by frnkeore "citation needed for antimony loss when tin is skimmed" rough paraphrase. Read Fryxell!!

And since ANTIMONY was stated as in the first 10 words of my first post and its loss during TIN OXIDE SKIMMING and since ALL THREE ALLOYS COMPONENTS ALL OXIDIZE and since all oxides are lower density than the melt and since TIN and ANTIMONY are the lightest of the OXIDES its bears witness to the fact that the lightest crap in the outhouse is on TOP and the most dense down in the ditch! Skim, you lose. Let pot sit, you lose. BHN drops in accordance over time due to ALLOY CHANGES MID_Session.

Well I guess I sarted a reasonable discussion here - and have been trying to follow the technical aspects as the thread has lengthened.   

thanks to everyone for their contributions.

Shanghai Jack wrote on Dec 15^th, 2015 at 7:43pm:


This is the #2 post.

The discussion is about tin alloy only as it uses the word Schuetzen. The standard Schuetzen alloy is a lead/tin alloy, usually between 20 - 30 to one, although it can range to 16 and 40/1.

Antimony is a non issue.

Frank

Quote:

OK ....
Quote:

The answer is still NO:
I have 2 boxes of commercial cast 243 gr 45LC with 250 bullets in each box.  I know the bullets are aged because they have been under the bench for 6 plus months.
* Just before this post, I randomly pulled 10 bullets (5 each from each of the 250 count boxes and tested the hardness of the bullets with a Lee Hardness Tester on the bottom of the bullets  which Lee Precision recommends is the proper place to test alloy hardness ...(the same with ingots)

All 10 bullets had the same hardness of Bhn 15.4  So, my conclusion is ... All 500 bullets have the same alloy hardness  
And I know that Carl Nill makes a run of several thousand for inventory at One Casting Session For a Specific Bullet Using Ingots Stacked On His Pallet With The Same Alloy That He Buys ... and are randomly placed in 250 count boxes after they come off the lube machine

Wow is right, we jumped from home casting 10-20 lbs on a 2 cavity mold over an hour or two to using a 20-40 cavity gang mold on a production machine capable of processing 200 lbs or more an hour and dropping 10 lbs per flow! Interesting when I smelt 50-100 lbs and pour ingots all the ingots test the same bhn. If I let the whole pot cool, it's all the same bhn too. But again I've assumed that Shaghai was discussing home production and not using his 2-5000 bullet per hour machine with 40 cav gang molds. I've probably assumed wrong again, like the antimony. 

John Boy your right, there is absolutely no change in bhn of molded alloy over time during a casting session, regardless of conditions, time, alloys materials. All the bullets will come out the same, 5 mins or 5 hours. His test is conclusive! I conceede.

Now can we get back to the original question?       Would bullets of differing hardness shoot at different velocity?   Ignoring the issue of how they got that way?

(I'm hating the see this thread die...... It's been such fun  )