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Effect of Bullet Hardness (Read 18761 times)

Shanghai Jack Junior Member Offline Posts: 59 Location: texas Joined: Apr 6^th, 2014	Effect of Bullet Hardness Dec 15^th, 2015 at 6:20pm	Print Post
	Assuming one could cast identical size and weight bullets of different hardness - what would be the impact on velocity all other things remaining the same Thanks


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rgchristensen Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1132 Joined: Jan 2^nd, 2014	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #1 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 7:02pm	Print Post
	How many BHN hardness testers can dance on the head of a pin? CHRIS RGChristensen


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Shanghai Jack Junior Member Offline Posts: 59 Location: texas Joined: Apr 6^th, 2014	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #2 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 7:43pm	Print Post
	Well, not exceptionally helpful rg The reason I ask is that I read that the longer your alloy remains molten, to some extent, the harder the castings. I'm not sure its true but was wondering in a long casting session if there would be a noticeable difference in hardness from bullet one to say bullet 200 and if so, the effect on the bullet's flight (to steal a phrase). I know that some schuetzen guys believe it to be true and some oldsters recommended shooting in as cast order to ensure minimum shot to shot variation. Still looking for feedback


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shovel80 Oldtimer Offline Posts: 896 Location: Sonora,CA Joined: Jun 6^th, 2011	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #3 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 7:55pm	Print Post
	don't know about hardness, but, I always shoot in order cast! Terry

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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #4 - Dec 15^th, 2015 at 8:25pm	Print Post
	Quote: The reason I ask is that I read that the longer your alloy remains molten, to some extent, the harder the castings Jack - I would like to read the source for this statement. Reason: When I melt ingots, I test immediately test the Bhn of several ingots. Then mark the Bhn on the ingot - stack them and then measure the Bhn after a month The aged alloy will be a different Bhn than when I first tested it for hardness Same is for cast bullets but No ... for Bhn change during casting - Never heard of such a thing Quote: Q. Do cast bullets harden or soften with age? A. It depends on the composition of the alloy. Tin-lead alloys gradually lose their hardness over about 20 days and then stabilize. A 1:10 alloy loses about 4 BHN and a 1:16 alloy will lose about 2 BHN. Alloys containing antimony (wheel weights, linotype, and various mixes) gain about 6 BHN over a 20 day period and then stabilize. Heat treated or cold quenched antimonial alloys will drop a bit from their peak hardness by about 2 - 3 BHN in a couple of days and then level out. After about 2 - 3 months they exhibit a slow decline in hardness but since the heat treatment or quenching can almost double the original hardness it is of little concern. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)


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Shanghai Jack Junior Member Offline Posts: 59 Location: texas Joined: Apr 6^th, 2014	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #5 - Dec 16^th, 2015 at 5:57am	Print Post
	Sort of why I posted it here John Boy, I'll have to go through all the junk I've printed and copied over the years. If I find it, I'll post it.


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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #6 - Dec 16^th, 2015 at 9:41am	Print Post
	As they age Lead / Tin alloys will soften. Lead / Tin / Antimony will harden. 40 Rod


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gunlaker Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2371 Location: lower mainland, B.C. Joined: Dec 13^th, 2010	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #7 - Dec 16^th, 2015 at 10:48am	Print Post
	Quote: Quote: The reason I ask is that I read that the longer your alloy remains molten, to some extent, the harder the castings Jack - I would like to read the source for this statement. I don't think that is correct. I can't see any physical basis for it. With respect to alloys changing over time, a lot of research has bern done by the electronics industry on solder alloys. The internet has a number of interesting papers that you can read on the subject. Chris.


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John Boy Ex Member	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #8 - Dec 16^th, 2015 at 11:51am	Print Post
	Quote: I'll have to go through all the junk I've printed and copied over the years. If I find it, I'll post it. Jack FYI, it's always a good procedure when posting on forums ... "I read" to post the link to the source document that contains the details for the subject to be discussed.


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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #9 - Dec 16^th, 2015 at 3:43pm	Print Post
	I've long believed that a melt inevitably loses tin (no matter how aggressively fluxed and stirred) over time. Hence the bullets cast early in the session will be harder than those cast toward the end. I attribute it to something that Pope published, but it's been so long that I could not begin to remember where.

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noylj Participating Member Offline Posts: 16 Joined: Feb 22^nd, 2014	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #10 - Dec 16^th, 2015 at 7:56pm	Print Post
	Compared to copper, the range of hardness for lead alloy is not that great. As long as the bullet engages the rifling and doesn't lead the barrel, I would bet that the difference in velocity is statistically insignificant. I don't notice Sn doing much for hardness--that is antimony and arsenic.


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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #11 - Dec 17^th, 2015 at 8:48am	Print Post
	For years Charlie Dell tried to find an alloy that would be stable. He tried various alloys of lead / tin and lead / tin / antimony and various heat treating methods. He never found an alloy that would not change over time. 40 Rod


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KAF Ex Member	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #12 - Dec 17^th, 2015 at 11:09am	Print Post
	My finding about hardness of bullets is, There is no percieved difference in how old cast bullets and new cast bullets impact the target. Old lube or freshly made lube has no apparent differences perceived. This is the conclusion I have come to as of now. Maybe a difference IF it was posible to measure, but I have not seen a difference in how the bullets hit the target.


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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #13 - Dec 17^th, 2015 at 11:25am	Print Post
	OK, assume that there is a measurable difference in hardness between bullets cast at the beginning of a session, and those cast at the end, due to loss of tin from the melt. If higher-tin alloys lose hardness in greater proportion to lower-tin alloys, the range of hardness should close up with time. I see this as no more than an interesting thought experiment for my part. Only the very best shooters might notice the difference, if there is any, and I'm not one of them. Will someone volunteer to run a controlled experiment? Has anyone done so in the past and published results? One would think that someone in the Schuetzen era might have done so, since it seems to have been universally held that one must shoot in order as cast. OTOH the existence of the ether was held by physicists to be a cosmological fact at the time, too.
	« Last Edit: Dec 17^th, 2015 at 2:09pm by uscra112 »
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art_ruggiero Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1150 Location: CT Joined: Dec 14^th, 2008	Re: Effect of Bullet Hardness Reply #14 - Dec 17^th, 2015 at 12:34pm	Print Post
	anyone have experience with using 22 rimfire scrap?


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