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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet (Read 8652 times)
Shanghai Jack
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Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Dec 4th, 2015 at 9:23pm
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Has anyone given thought to alloying normal bullet metals with hexagonal boron nitride.  I know that some people shot peen it to copper jacketed bullets.  It melts at 3000+ degrees Centigrade and at least theoretically should make a self lubricating bullet.   

Opinions welcome
  
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EricJ
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #1 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 12:28am
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There is quite a few articles on Accurate Shooters page about it.  I personally don't buy into all these coatings, including the new rage, powder coating.  I either shoot bare jacketed or traditional greased lead, depending on my rifle.
  
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bruce moulds
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #2 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 5:15am
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or the best of all, the paper patched bullet Cool Cheesy
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #3 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 8:12am
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I've read the coating articles but was wondering about actually including the boron nitride in the actual melt.   

Thanks for the responses.
  
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Jeff Houck
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #4 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 10:15am
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If boron nitride melts at 3000+ degrees C, then it's not going to combine with the lead alloy mix. Since it's density will be different from the lead alloy it would probably either float on top of the mix or sink to the bottom of the mix. Either way it probably isn't going to form a solution so it won't be incorporated into the bullet.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #5 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 10:31am
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Not to get too far off the topic question. But I've wondered about the trend to powder coat bullets also, and it's effect on the bore of guns? Has anyone looked at powder coating, and done any testing on it's hardness, to determine if it might create premature wear to the bore?
  

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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #6 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 12:08pm
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Interesting stuff. However, I'm a bit concerned about having  something hard enough
to scratch diamond sliding down the bore of my rifle. Sounds too much like lapping. 
Nevertheless, it is used as a lubricant. Time and some careful experiments will tell. 

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calledflyer
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #7 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 12:52pm
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I'm not going to buy into any trick of the week fad myself- but I did a little (very) reading about it last evening after the first post. One of the article/adverts went to tell that it embeds itself into the bore upon shooting, thus providing a lube for the future. I quit right there, thinking anything that embeds is just wrong for a barrel. Besides, what gets it out if you decide to go back to normal? Nope, not for me, thank ya very much.
  
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #8 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 2:49pm
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Jeff Houck wrote on Dec 5th, 2015 at 10:15am:
If boron nitride melts at 3000+ degrees C, then it's not going to combine with the lead alloy mix. Since it's density will be different from the lead alloy it would probably either float on top of the mix or sink to the bottom of the mix. Either way it probably isn't going to form a solution so it won't be incorporated into the bullet.


That's what I was wondering but then I was thinking that antimony which is in many alloys melts at 1167 degrees Fahrenheit.  Normal casting temperature usually doesn't exceed 800 or so degrees F. but we don't see visible chunks of antimony failing to melt in the pot.  Maybe its at the crystal lattice level.   

Additionally antimony is about 1/2 the molar mass of lead, so it is also significantly less dense that lead and about the same density as tin, neither of which we see settling out by density during the melt  so it would seem that there is some other process at work here for metals in the melt like antimony.   

Looking forward to more discussion. 
  
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #9 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 3:49pm
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desert-dude wrote on Dec 5th, 2015 at 12:08pm:
Interesting stuff. However, I'm a bit concerned about having  something hard enough
to scratch diamond sliding down the bore of my rifle. Sounds too much like lapping. 
Nevertheless, it is used as a lubricant. Time and some careful experiments will tell. 

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I would agree with you but you looked at the wrong boron nitride.  Cubic boron nitride and wurtsite boron nitride are both as hard or harder than diamond.  But we are talking about hexagonal boron ntride.   

Here's a few numbers.  Essentially a higher number will scratch/abrade a lower number.   

Mohs hardness of Wurtsite Boron Nitride > 10
Mohs hardness of Cubic Boron Nitride 9 - 9.5
Mohs hardness of Diamond 9
Mohs hardness of steel 4 - 4.5
Mohs hardness of copper 3
Mohs hardness of antimony 3
Mohs hardness of tin 1.5
Mohs hardness of lead 1.5
Mohs hardness of graphite 1 - 2
Mohs hardness of hexagonal boron nitride 1 - 1.5
Mohs hardness of talc 1

I think I remember reading that Pope used colloidial graphite in one of his lubes which would have been just about the same as what we're talking about.
  
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #10 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 3:58pm
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calledflyer wrote on Dec 5th, 2015 at 12:52pm:
I'm not going to buy into any trick of the week fad myself- but I did a little (very) reading about it last evening after the first post. One of the article/adverts went to tell that it embeds itself into the bore upon shooting, thus providing a lube for the future. I quit right there, thinking anything that embeds is just wrong for a barrel. Besides, what gets it out if you decide to go back to normal? Nope, not for me, thank ya very much.


Good point - here's an article I found about the Department of Defense adding Hexagonal boron Nitride to their powder indicating that it might double bore life on a howitzers I believe  

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One article I read says that "it can be hydrolized in boiling water"  and as I remember from chemistry a long time ago hydrolysis is breaking down a molecule/compound.  If you can hydrolyze boron nitride by pumping boiling water through your barrel, you shoud be left with a clean barrel, water, boric acid, and ammonia I think, but now I need a chemist as well as a metallurgist.   


« Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2015 at 4:25pm by Shanghai Jack »  
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #11 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 4:51pm
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Instead of adding the hexagonal boron nitride to a molten alloy, blend it in as part of frangible bullet construction?
  

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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #12 - Dec 5th, 2015 at 11:35pm
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Still gonna skip it, hydrolizable (is that a word?) or not. By the time you pour water into a bore, it ain't boiling any longer.   
By the way now you need a metalurgist, chemist, and a hot water pump as well. Thanks, but no thanks.
  
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Shanghai Jack
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #13 - Dec 6th, 2015 at 8:24am
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calledflyer wrote on Dec 5th, 2015 at 11:35pm:
Still gonna skip it, hydrolizable (is that a word?) or not. By the time you pour water into a bore, it ain't boiling any longer.   
By the way now you need a metalurgist, chemist, and a hot water pump as well. Thanks, but no thanks.


Wellyou could always use steam - then you'd need to add a steam and pipe fitter to you list  Wink
  
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Re: Metallurgist please? - Self Lubricating bullet
Reply #14 - Dec 6th, 2015 at 3:35pm
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After a year of metallurgy, Ill offer this since my final was a dissertation on PbSn alloys for improved bullet strength:

Pb and Sn are a solid solution, with regard to bullets.
Forget the idea of Antimony melting point at very high temps.
The Antimony you need to introduce is done at high temps and is always alloyed--- not at your home! You don't have the necessary STUFF to make lead and antimony marry.
Once married the Pb is a carrier of the antimony, thus Rotometals sells antimonial Lead! A way to get your antimony w/o the marital problems.

Solid solutions are different, they are not ionic/covalent bonded, its more like mixing salt and pepper. With heating and cooling the position of the antimony is controlled, I.e. whether Antimony is wrapping lead crystals or sitting in chunks here and there.
Using VERY non scientific terms here for sake of clarity.

You can control antimony position with a good deal of accuracy based on its cooling curve and start temps, just like you control steel's crystalline structure--- read up on conversion of ferritic iron/carbon to pearlite and conversion to martensite. Its all in how you heat and cool as to what the solid solution does. Water quench a bullet, heat treat a bullet, air cool a bullet, all control Antimonial Position directly!!!

Now I think you would be venturing into uncharted territory with adding boron Hex to lead, it would be considered an alloy, an inclusion (like carbon flecks in a diamond), it would alter the bullets brinell hardness and strength for a given alloy and may not enter a solution with either antimony, lead, tin, zinc, etc that may be also present in your bullet alloy, until maybe those materials are at vapor stages, meaning, you can't get boron suspended before your lead turns to a gas. I'm not a chemist. You can add crap till the cows come home but think what happens when you flux your bullet melt. You add WOOD, parafin, bees wax, carnuba, and various salts that float. That boron is AWFUL light and not soluble potentially and it won't change state (not hot enough to go from solid to liquid to gas) so........ FLOATS, TEMP, NON-SOLUBLE---- seems like its dead

Except when you coat the bullet. You don't want the boron in the bullet you want it at the surface.
Lee Liquid Alox, think coating, which is how boron is traditionally applied to bullets.
Ill bet a doughnut if you melt a boron coated bullet in your pot, the boron will flux off.
Impregnation, not solution is the key to use.

See ya

  
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