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mike in Va.
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Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Dec 2nd, 2015 at 6:03pm
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Friend of a friend has a 1901 Parker double barrel shotgun with Damascus barrels in fine shape.  Casting aside all the normal caveats--don't shoot Damascus, have BP gunsmith check it out--does anyone on this forum shoot one of these.  The guy just wants to know if smokeless low brass lead shells are OK?  Just assume the gun is as new. 

I note modern shotgun shells are rated in BP equivalent drams.  So if the gun is rated for X drams would a similarly rated smokeless shell have a similar pressure curve.   

I have experience with rifles but none with shotguns.
  
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #1 - Dec 2nd, 2015 at 9:22pm
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I have 10 Parkers 3 are Damascus and shoot them all.  With the standard cautions make sure the gun is safe etc can give you the shell info most of us use.

Brass height has nothing to do with suitability it's pressure and recoil that counts.

Barrels themselves will handle modern field load pressures if the shell fits the chambers. Most Parker 12s were 2 5/8 inch chambers. 2 3/4 will increase the pressure.  "Promo" 12s ones for sale at WalMart are loaded with small charges of fast powder, to save cost, and work at fairly high pressure.   Other concern is 100 plus year old wood can and will crack under repeated strong recoil, fixing cracks is expensive.

End result is all of the experienced SXS shooters use low recoil shells.  Two brands RST made in Pennsylvania and B&Ps Italian. Not cheap but very good . If hunting few boxes a year RST is the way to go. Main Parker I shoot clays with by empty primer box count has 15,000 shells through it since I have owned the gun, factory low pressure to expensive with that volume.

We all cut shot loads too, to reduce recoil. My 12 g guns use Reloads in Winchester AA hulls and either 3/4 or 7/8 oz shot.  AA"s are shorter just a bit over 2 5/8 very near old hull specs and the light shot loads make the guns recoil like 20s or even 28s. Reloads are low cost. I used to cut hulls down to 2 1/2 inch and roll crimp, gave it up for AAs full leingth. Fired they show no sign of being to loon fold crimped. Remington STS hulls do.

Choked very tight they get nice patterns with light shot loads.  20s I run 11/16 or 3/4 oz, 16 3/4 or 7/8, 10 G 1 1/8 oz and a few 1 1/4 oz loads for Crows. 

My oldest Parker 1876 12 G lifter run on 3 drams 2F Black and 1 oz shot.

Tell him if he wants detailed load info Parker Collectors Club web site is a good start. Needs phone info give me a PM

Boats
« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2015 at 9:34pm by boats »  
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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #2 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 6:26am
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Quote:
I have experience with rifles but none with shotguns.


Good morning Mike --

I shoot a well cared for Remington 1889 Side X Side 12 Bore which has Damascus barrels and would be glad to render suggestions for the benefit of your friend.

You mentioned "modern ammunition", which can mean several things.  The cautionary note I would begin with is to have your friend determine the internal dimensions of both chambers.  The "classic" barrel failures which occur in the these early S X S damascus barrels is caused by shooting current production shot shells.  As you probable know, current production shot shells use folded closing techniques.  When such shell are fired, the folded end is designed to open, i.e. un-fold, thereby releasing the shot charge.

The problems encountered is that vintage shot guns have chambers which are dimensionally shorter in overall length and when a current production shell unfolds upon firing, the plastic case un-folds into the chamber forcing cone which results in a restriction.  Thus, the restricted barrel at the internal forcing cone causes the chamber pressure to increase to dangerously high levels which exceed the design pressures.

The partial solution is for your friend to procure shot shells that are entirely brass, thus eliminating the folded end closure.  The brass shot shell in reloadable, made for vintage chamber dimensions, and is closed with a over-shot wad and sealed with "waterglass".  Alternatively, there are vintage paper hulls on the market which are loaded with black powder and a roll crimp over a paper closing wad.

I also highly recommend that your friend pay a visit to the Double Gun web forum for a comprehensive resource pertaining to everything shotguning, but particularly vintage Side By Sides.

Regards,

Webb
  
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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #3 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 6:51am
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Mike ;

If your friend who is getting into S X S shotgunning could benefit from a wealth of experience, may I suggest he visit at:

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and click on the forum entry; "Double Gun BBS-Q & A"

For vintage style and spec. "off the shelf" shotgun ammunition please see;

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

For the joy of hunting with vintage era S X S hammer guns meet George Calef at;

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)


When are we going to get together with John Bly,  Allen C. , yourself, and other Maynard types in Winchester, Front Royal, or wherever, to swap Maynard information, experiences, social, shooting ?

One outstanding possibility in Winchester is the Union Jack Pub located in the historic Union Bank Building.

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Webb
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #4 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 7:39am
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Web,

Short chambers with sharp edge intended for Brass is the reason I use Black powder in my 1876 lifter.  It runs fine on Paper hulls roll crimpled though.

Newer Parkers around the turn of the century were built for Smokeless powder and had longer forcing cones. The do fine with fold crimps as long as the hull is not too long.  If it's short chambered Rolling is easy to do.

Problem with Brass is it's expensive if you load a lot of shells at one time. Here are 250 10 G loaded for a 1886 2 Grade, two rounds of sporting clays worth.  Cost a fortune to load that many with brass. 20 for hunting Brass is a viable option. Note these 10 G hulls were 3 1/2 inches cut down to 2 7/8 to suit the Guns chamber. All fold crimped

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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #5 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 9:43am
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  Mike --

In the late 19th and early 20th Centuries, there was scarce uniformity of standards in the American firearms industries.  There were a multitude of manufacturers and each brand name presented in the marketplace with its own idea of what the standards should be at that time.  Most people know that there was not even a proof house in America  to assure firearms safety.  The recommended approach to the "friend's" situation is to have the particular arm in question presented, measured and evaluated individually by a professional person in this field of endeavor.

I purposely have not provided any advice or information on loading specifications in this situation for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which, the question as presented asked for assistance for "a friend of a friend". 

If loading data were to be furnished under those conditions, it would constitute the equivalent of hearsay, twice removed.  I hope you understand the dilemma that could result in.  Out of a large measure of caution and prudence, I best leave the topic of loading, which powder, how much powder, and, etc. etc. to the folks who have deep pockets.

Thanks,
Webb
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #6 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 10:11am
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Web's right, in fact all Parkers with the exception of Trojan's were built to customers order.  Many older models were chambered for brass cases much longer than normal factory cartridges.  They may chamber a modern longer magnum cartridge but were not built for the pressure. Some rare variants out there like very long 20 G chambers and barrels for hulls never produced by the major factors.

Best thing to do is get someone to measure the chambers wall thickness & chokes. Who in Virginia is another story. Not many SxS qualified gunsmith in the state. Most of us measure our own guns. There is a fellow in Rocky Mt Va that's supposed to be good, but have never used him. All my guns were measured before  I shot them. Clean smooth bores are a red flag, few survived corrosive primers without some pitting. Clean means honed out most of the time.

On Web sites, Double Gun can be good but lot of argumentative posters who know little.  Parker official site you have to be a paid up member, tightly moderated ,and very good information. One of the members just walked me through a broken Ejector and made a new screw for one of my guns. Even though you have to pay to join not a bad deal though, members get a factory letter at discount. Most Parkers have some detail on how the gun was built and who it was shipped to.

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Captain Bob
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #7 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 10:50am
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Mike - Direct your friend to the Parker Gun Collectors' Association (PGCA) forum - (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) - answers to any and all of his question and concerns can be found there.
Bob
  
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mike in Va.
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #8 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 10:52am
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Wow! 
 
Thanks for all the info.  I will forward it directly to my friend's friend.  So useful.

Re: Maynard get together, I'm all in.

I have a lovely setting for get together and shoot if interested.  I'm 20 miles south of Fredericksburg, Va.  Can put targets out to 350 yards before corn gets too tall in the spring.  Original brick kitchen out back  to gather around a fire if cool.  Might convince my wife to make a lunch over the fire--she demonstrates open hearth cooking at Gunston Hall, Mount Vernon, Kenmore, Williamsburg, etc.  I think it would be fun.  Just a thought.

Again, thanks for all the great info.

Mike
  
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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #9 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 1:35pm
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  Thanks for your response, Mike.  Your suggestion for a Maynard social get together at your location south of Fredericksburg is most gracious and of much interest for the following reasons.

I have not seen most of the shooters of original Maynard/s since the first Maynard match held in Thurmont, Maryland.

I have inclinations that it would be right and proper for there to be a national membership  organization whose charter and mission statement would include current and future owners of original Massachusetts Arms Company produced Maynard firearms produced under the original patents of 27 May 1851, and 06 December 1859, granted to patentee, Edward Maynard and to his assigns.  

That such a membership organization would seek and include as members, Maynard firearms owners who research, educate, collect, restore, smith, shoot, compete, and/or otherwise appreciate any and all aspects of the Maynard patent firearms heritage left to us by Dr. Edward Maynard, or his heirs and descendants.

If such an association of Maynard owners were to evolve into a duly constituted membership organization, I would envision it to be a formal, not for profit entity, with democratic procedures, non-partisan, and of inclusive principals.

Comments and suggestions are solicited and welcome.

Webb
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brianich
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #10 - Dec 3rd, 2015 at 11:46pm
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Check out Vintagers and Doublewides by Polywad: 
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Dr.Maynard
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #11 - Dec 4th, 2015 at 5:28am
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Thanks for your suggestion Brianich --

PolyWad is a company that is dominant in the wad business, for sure.  I was unaware that they also marketed loaded shot shells, and for vintage shotguns yet.  Thanks !

In days of yesteryear, shotgunners used shot shells made with brass or paper hulls.  So part of today's enjoyment of shooting vintage is not only the 100 year old shot guns, but also the experience of chambering vintage period correct shells to take down one's prey. 

Webb
  
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #12 - Dec 4th, 2015 at 7:48am
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I use Polywad's spreader insert on top of shot to compensate for tight chokes & short range targets.  Inside 20 yards they make a FC barrel pattern like I/C  That 10 G photo 250 shells, loaded another 50 with Polywads.

Other day we had a  pair first clay outgoing over a pond, long shot, 2nd bird of the pair incoming skipping on top of the water. Broke it 10-15 yards in front of the stand. Modern gun shooters amazed extra full 10 G Hammer Gun could break close targets.

Never said a word about the Polywad's

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notlwonk
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #13 - Dec 4th, 2015 at 8:14am
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I hope I'm not breaking any rules but on the Cast Bullet forum there is someone who regularly writes about his Parkers.
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Re: Anyone shooting a Parker Bros Damascus barrel shot
Reply #14 - Dec 4th, 2015 at 10:14am
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I know him, nice guy with Big Bore Parkers.  Fringe group in the Parker Club are the 8 G shooters.

Anyhow enough Shotgun on ASSRA from me, anybody want more send a PM

Boats
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