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No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless (Read 8720 times)

SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2944 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Nov 4^th, 2015 at 9:18am	Print Post
	The loads noted in the Fall 2015 BCN's reprint of the 1904 "Shooting and Fishing" magazine's "1904 Election Day Match" article states that Pope, Hudson & Ross all loaded 3gr of No. 1 DuPont powder with the balance of the powder being FFg semi-smokeless. In Pope's load data, it is listed as "semi-smokeless" and is listed as "smokeless" in the other two loads. Am wondering if No. 1 DuPont powder morphed into a current day powder or if it went the way of the Dodo over the years. Pope (2270) & Hudson (2250) shot a 33-40-220 and Ross (2233) a 32-40-200. Interesting that Pope shot one case throughout the match and Hudson shot cases he had loaded prior to the match. No mention about Ross.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1315 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #1 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 10:35am	Print Post
	SSShooter When I read that same piece, the priming charge of DuPont No.1 *Semi-Smokeless* jumped off the page at me. I contacted the editor (Steve Garbe) and his reply was the article was taken verbatim from the source. As DuPont did not make a No.1 Semi-Smokeless, the original source must be in error. DuPont No.1 Smokeless was one of the early commercially available smokeless powders, being introduced about 1895. It was intended to be a one-for-one volume replacement for black powder, i.e., a 40 grain bulk (volume) charge of black was replaced by a 40 grain bulk (volume) charge of No.1. If No.1 Smokeless morphed into anything, it was probably DuPont Schuetzen Smokeless (I have read at least one reference that claims the two were actually the same powder). Now if you want to discuss semi-smokeless powder, that's a whole 'nuther story . . .
	« Last Edit: Nov 4^th, 2015 at 1:11pm by RSW »
	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Schutzenbob Frequent Elocutionist Offline Rheinisch-Westfälisc hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken Posts: 2334 Location: Nightingale, California Joined: Oct 24^th, 2005	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #2 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 12:36pm	Print Post
	This may be what they were thinking of;


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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1315 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #3 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 1:29pm	Print Post
	Bob That's the stuff I was referring to, DuPont's version of semi-smokeless powder was branded under *Lesmok. While it was widely available in factory loaded ammo, especially 22RF, I do not think it was as popular among target shooters as was the King's* brand shown in the photo you posted.

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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John Boy Ex Member	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #4 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 1:29pm	Print Post
	A good read on 'Smokeless' DuPont No 1 powder including a data chart of reloads, compliments of John Kort... (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)


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SSShooter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2944 Location: Southern NJ Joined: Aug 1^st, 2010	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #5 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 3:46pm	Print Post
	The article mentioned that Pope & Ross used FFg King Semi-smokeless with the 3gr of No. 1 DuPont while Hudson used FFg Laflin & Rand Orange Rifle. My interest is that I'm refurbishing a Hepburn and an will be having the barrel lined back to the original 32-40, as marked. I would like to shoot "traditional" loads and am wondering what a good smokeless powder would be to use 3gr with FFFg Goex or Swiss or Olde Eynsford might be. Guess we are calling these loads duplex these days.

	Glenn - Stevens 044 1/2, Bartlein SS 5R barrel in 22LR
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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1315 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #6 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:04pm	Print Post
	SSShooter The old standby is IMR4227, although about 3.5 to 4 grains have given me good results for 32-40. The old references to 3 gr of smokeless priming powder were bulk measure (volume) not weight. I have been fortunate to have been testing duplex loads using an old Stevens-Pope powder flask. Its chamber for dispensing smokeless is fixed and I'm assuming that it was intended to throw 3 gr bulk of DuPont No.1 as that was Pope's recommended priming charge for 32-40. That chamber throws almost 5 gr (weight) of 4227. The chamber for throwing black is adjustable. He recommended the remainder of the case be filled with a "good grade" of FG black or semi-smokeless. It was then topped with a card wad in the case mouth (punched from used post cards). Other suitable smokeless priming powders, IMO, are SR4759 and believe it or not, I've had decent results, so far, using 3.0 gr (weight) TrailBoss (go figure).

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4036 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #7 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 4:06pm	Print Post
	My can of Kings Semi-smokeless hasn't got any marking for how many F's were in there. But, it's rear label says, "Larger Grains= for Larger Calibers and Cases and Vice Versa". I wonder if there may have been a paper label, long gone, to identify the granulation. Not as nice a can as the one pictured above.


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Schutzenbob Frequent Elocutionist Offline Rheinisch-Westfälisc hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken Posts: 2334 Location: Nightingale, California Joined: Oct 24^th, 2005	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #8 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 5:36pm	Print Post
	Phil Sharpe's precautions for early powders;


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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 18237 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #9 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 7:56pm	Print Post
	DuPont Smokeless Schuetzen states on the back of the can, "This powder has been designed to meet the demand for a bulk powder to be used in Schuetzen rifles, with the same method of loading as black powder. It is a bulk powder of medium sized granulation, and is especially desirable for those who load their rifles at the firing point."

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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #10 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 8:22pm	Print Post
	Phil Sharpe's precautions lead me to believe it was nitroglycerin mixed with a bulk delivery system.

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1315 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #11 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 8:42pm	Print Post
	Schuetzenmiester You are very close on the composition. Semi-smokeless powder was a mixture of nitrocellulose (made with wood rather than cotton) and black powder. The ingredients were mixed wet, dried and finally ground and screened into the various F, FF, FFF granulations. Semi-smokeless verged on unstable but was quite popular among the schuetzen shooters around the turn of the 20th century. In addition to being somewhat unstable, it also had a short shelf life. Semi-smokeless' disappearance as a center fire rifle propellant coincided with the end of the big time schuetzenfests. It continued to be used in 22RF target ammo well into the 1930's though.

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Schuetzenmiester Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 6707 Location: Cool Wet Side of WA Joined: Apr 27^th, 2008	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #12 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 9:09pm	Print Post
	That is interesting. I almost said mixed with sawdust

	"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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John Boy Ex Member	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #13 - Nov 4^th, 2015 at 10:00pm	Print Post
	Google Books-Lesmok. Then scroll up for the read on Kings ... (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)


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EricJ Junior Member Offline Posts: 64 Location: Nebraska Joined: Jul 14^th, 2012	Re: No. 1 DuPont (semi) Smokeless Reply #14 - Nov 5^th, 2015 at 12:34am	Print Post
	That is really interesting about the Lesmok, I honestly never knew what that was although my old Remington model 24 actually says on the barrel Lesmok. I know very little about Dupont #1 except I have some loading data for my 38-72 that uses #1, #75 or #80. All of which is obsolete now, but it would be interesting to find burn rates for these old powders that we could cross reference to new powder.


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