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breech seating???? (Read 6179 times)

KenHo Junior Member Offline Posts: 81 Joined: Jun 29^th, 2015	breech seating???? Oct 26^th, 2015 at 9:05pm	Print Post
	There was a thread about a month ago about breech seating. It's a very good thread and explained several things things about breech seating bullets. (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links) I do have a question, is breech seating only for smokeless? OR - is it ever used for black powder? If used for BP, how do you prevent an empty space in black powder? Thanks for any guidance, Ken H> Is

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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1219 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: breech seating???? Reply #1 - Oct 26^th, 2015 at 10:01pm	Print Post
	KenHo As a picture is supposed to be worth a thousand words, I won't waste a lot of them explaining the illustration I've attached. This is the way I breech seat for both smokeless and black powders.

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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MartiniBelgian Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1701 Location: Aarschot Joined: Jun 7^th, 2004	Re: breech seating???? Reply #2 - Oct 27^th, 2015 at 2:10am	Print Post
	FWIW, The 'BP without air space' is another urban myth - just not true. Back in the days, someone like W.W. Greener even recommended partial charges for express rifles in case the correct powder granulation wasn't available, to prevent - you guessed it - the barrel bulging or bursting. Since then, I stopped worrying about it and shot probably 1000+ BP rounds with airspace - more specifically, 577-450 in original martini's with soft steel barrels. However, what DON'T want to do is to seat the wad firmly on top of the powder and have the airspace between overpowder wad and bullet. The same as with smokeless, I guess. And as back in the days, breech seating was developed with BP, they would have noticed quickly if it damaged their barrels...


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stubbicatt Ex Member	Re: breech seating???? Reply #3 - Oct 27^th, 2015 at 7:56am	Print Post
	RSW, that is an outstanding illustration. Thanks for the information.


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KenHo Junior Member Offline Posts: 81 Joined: Jun 29^th, 2015	Re: breech seating???? Reply #4 - Oct 27^th, 2015 at 10:36am	Print Post
	RSW, thank you for the drawing - that does a GREAT job of showing just what's going on for smokeless as well as for BP. Until reading on this forum I'd never heard of breech seating bullets. MartiniBelgian; I read something about space in BP not being a problem a while back, and it was NEW idea to me. Yep, a wad seated tight against the powder with an air space between wad and bullet base would act like an obstruction in the barrel I'm sure. There are folks who are cautioning against partial case powder changes even with smokeless due to pressure spikes that have been recorded. Is an air space a "real" rather than a "perceived" problem with any powder, especially BP? I don't know. I've always been taught back in muzzle loader days that seating bullet tight against powder was absolute requirement..... Partial case of bp sure would make cowboy loads easy with bpcr shooting! Ken H>

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marlinguy Frequent Elocutionist Offline Ballards may be weaker, but they sure are neater! Posts: 16700 Location: Oregon Joined: Feb 2^nd, 2009	Re: breech seating???? Reply #5 - Oct 27^th, 2015 at 11:06am	Print Post
	Air space with smokeless powders is not the issue. It's the type of smokeless powder, and air space that can be an issue. Most people want to use a powder that fills the case, so that it's impossible to double charge the case. Some fast burning powders can be easily charged many times over, and still not fill the case, but it's really about loading carefully. The bigger problem is pressure spikes from hot powders, not how full the case is. There's some great smokeless powders that leave a lot of air space in a case, but still perform very well.

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KenHo Junior Member Offline Posts: 81 Joined: Jun 29^th, 2015	Re: breech seating???? Reply #6 - Oct 27^th, 2015 at 5:36pm	Print Post
	Vall, that's been my experience also with loading smokeless. I've used LOTS of PB powder over the years and never had a problem. With that powder you could a 2X or even 3X charge in the case. I've always used the procedure of "dump powder, seat bullet" so there is MUCH less chance of double charging a case. I just like a slower powder to fill case more - Ken H>

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RSW Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 1219 Location: Arizona Joined: Sep 8^th, 2006	Re: breech seating???? Reply #7 - Oct 27^th, 2015 at 6:13pm	Print Post
	KenHo, stubbicatt Thanks for the positive feedback on my illustration. While the artwork is mine, the concept of inserting a bullet, base first, to set breech seating depth should be credited to Russ Weber. He includes a description of how it's done when he ships his breech seating tools. I think a good visual makes it easier to understand though. Target shooters back at the turn of the 20th century used to leave an air gap when they breech seated or muzzle loaded with black powder or duplex loads. I prefer to have the gap filled with a felt wad. Shooter's choice.

	Randy W ASSRA 10211 - ISSA 125 There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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calledflyer Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3666 Joined: Mar 9^th, 2015	Re: breech seating???? Reply #8 - Oct 27^th, 2015 at 11:09pm	Print Post
	Randy W, every time I've seen the artwork you created, I'm impressed with the absolute clarity of the drawings in portraying your ideas and information. They say that a picture is worth a thousand words, but in these cases you've bettered the old saw. Thanks.


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primers Junior Member Offline Posts: 56 Location: Arizona Joined: Apr 17^th, 2014	Re: breech seating???? Reply #9 - Oct 28^th, 2015 at 12:06pm	Print Post
	Forgive my ignorance, I am pretty new to breach seating... But couldn't I base my case length off this measurement? If so.. how much shorter, or longer for same? Do I want the brass to just engage bullet? Also... would I have to change seater depth, with shorter or longer bullets? Thanks...


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7388 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: breech seating???? Reply #10 - Oct 28^th, 2015 at 12:42pm	Print Post
	The chamber remains the same with BSing and if the chamber is cut to SAMMI specs, you'll see that you can't have a case longer than 2.168. 2.16 would be more realistic and to seal the bore, the bullet base will need to be forward of that. Frank
	« Last Edit: Oct 28^th, 2015 at 1:00pm by frnkeore »
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KenHo Junior Member Offline Posts: 81 Joined: Jun 29^th, 2015	Re: breech seating???? Reply #11 - Oct 28^th, 2015 at 6:10pm	Print Post
	So, what I'm understanding is there most likely is a small gap between brass mouth and the base of bullet? So, anyway you do it there would be an air gap there. What about the wad - wouldn't it almost see the bullet as an "obstruction" in the barrel? That is one of the things I've always been taught with smokeless that NEVER have a wad seated again powder to hold powder against primer leaving a large space between was and bullet base. BUT - as I've said before, I've just learned something new - you can shoot half case of BP without filler and not blow up gun...... is that what I've learned? Thanks again to all ya'll for teaching an old dog new tricks. Ken H>

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bruce moulds Senior Forum Member Offline Posts: 290 Location: the antipodes Joined: Mar 14^th, 2015	Re: breech seating???? Reply #12 - Oct 29^th, 2015 at 6:50am	Print Post
	breech seating with an airgap also works with bore diameter pp bullets. I have increased the gap from zero in both 40 and 45 cal rifles using black powder, and both calibres start to deliver in my rifles with about 1/8" gap. this happens to coincide with where the leade angle ends. keep safe, bruce.

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