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calledflyer
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.32-40 and small primers
Oct 11th, 2015 at 3:05pm
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I have been shooting some new cases that I've nicknamed the .32 Buffum, since Terry  supplied me with a small lot of old .30 American cases to experiment with. To start, they are about as nearly identical as any single box of cases I've ever held. They formed like any others would and started shining from the get go. So far using two small rifle primers-WSR and Fed205, but with otherwise tried and true loads of 4227 and 4759 and a 196 gr. bullet of unknown make the results are very gratifying. Both powders have shot several groups under 3/4, with one very nice group coming in at .600. Now, this rifle has sometimes been under an inch off and on if I do my part. But, the thrill here has been the fact that all the loads with small primers have been better than average to better than hoped for. These cases have been overlooked if my tests so far mean anything. Sure worth a try if you're looking to try new fields. My test will continue using other known loads for comparison, and I hope for good new there as well. Breech seating will be interesting, but then, I'm not sure I can shoot any better than this. By the way the rifle is old, still retaining the "fat" firing pin and a nearly perfect bore. No safe queen this one.  But I have a question to put to you......
With the success of the small rifle primers, would you be hesitant to try some loads with small PISTOL numbers? Any prior attempts or even considered advice is welcome. I really don't want that nice bore to be at risk-ever. Thanks to all of you, and a real big thanks to Terry Buffum for helping me do this.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #1 - Oct 11th, 2015 at 4:26pm
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I bought 30 American's when thet first came out, in the mid 80's.  I still have a lot of cases but, haven't been shooting them for the last few years because I'm using the 357 Max case now.

I'll go back through my chrono book and post some info on them. I've got work to do on my shop this afternoon but, will get to it this evening.

Frank
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #2 - Oct 11th, 2015 at 5:02pm
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Frank, what size is the 30 American?  About the same a a 30 carbine?
  

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terry buffum
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #3 - Oct 11th, 2015 at 5:14pm
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30 American is the .30-30 with a small primer.
  

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JLouis
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #4 - Oct 11th, 2015 at 5:28pm
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Unless a rifle shoots consistently to a high degree of accuracy it makes it extremely difficult to come up with a fair comparison and thus a valid conclusion one way or the other. At best it would take a minmum of at least 20 each 5 or 10 shot groups and using the averages using from each the large and the small just to be able to start getting a hint of which one might be the better of the two and that is still way shy of being enough to be able to draw a reasonably strong conclusion. I personally have not had great success with the small rifle primers shooting breach seated bullets in my 32-40 but that is just one persons exstensive test results and I have never found pistol primers to provide better results than standard rifle primers either large or small. 

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calledflyer
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #5 - Oct 11th, 2015 at 5:43pm
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John, I'm not implying that this test is either done or totally scientific. It has been uniformly good- based on a rifle that I've known for many, many years. And a whole passel of normal cases. So, if it's doing this good, I've got to believe the cases are helping. And, it sounds like you used small pistol primers in the cases? At least tell me if you had any unsafe results from them.
  
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JLouis
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #6 - Oct 11th, 2015 at 7:30pm
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Calledflyer I never felt it was ever unsafe and I never had a problem. The only thing that might be of concern is the pistol primers are shorter in length and I have heard of breech block faces being damaged on older rifles from being hammered by the shorter primers moving back in the longer primer pocket.
I would also encourage you to experiment as much as possible as I always found it extremely enjoyable as well as extrmely valuable. I have learned alot from doing so the past 15 years and I am still learning something every time I go out. One of the things I was always amazed by is what worked best for me did not always work best for others and vice versa and at times what others simply claimed just would not work turned out to be just the ticket for me.

JLouis
  

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calledflyer
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #7 - Oct 11th, 2015 at 8:33pm
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gotcha- I'm more interested in exploring things these days than I ever was. That's what got me interested in the fixed loads for the .32-40. Thirty years of the the same 'ol thing breechseating was enough. I thought that with enough fiddling fixed could do a lot better job than most believe. Now, I believe it more than ever. 
By the way, the small primers are the same size for rifle and pistol. It's the large ones that are different depth. That's why the query about any thoughts or experiences are out there.
  
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JLouis
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #8 - Oct 11th, 2015 at 11:16pm
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Have fun and let us know how it goes with the fixed. Merrell Martin / I hope I got his first name spelled right was the only one I know of who was simi successful with shooting fixed in ASSRA and ISSA matches. He used to shoot matches at our range but it was before my time. He also did it with a modified Ruger #1 and there was also a real nice article published about his means and methods but over time I have lost it. 

JLouis
  

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40_Rod
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #9 - Oct 12th, 2015 at 8:43am
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Years ago when I was still shooting a 32-40 as my primary bench rifle I tested cases with a Large and Small rifle primers with 4227 and AA#9s. I prepped the cases identically by: informing the primer pocket and informing the flash hole to .060” and deburing the flash hole. For a couple of weeks I shot them side by side using Federal 205 Ms and Federal 210 Ms. I got virtually identical FPSs and standard deviation was the same. The group size difference was negligible, one day I would make a slightly smaller group with one the next time the other. Groups averaged pretty much the same on each day. My conclusion was that made no difference in group size with those two powders. I have just used normal 32-40 large primered cases ever since in 32-40.
  I know that there are those who feel that the small rifle primer makes a difference, if you do fine in the end it is important to have confidence in your load. I have just never seen a difference any greater than bringing your lucky rabbits foot.

40 Rod
   
  
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calledflyer
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #10 - Oct 12th, 2015 at 11:02am
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40 Rod- thanks for the reply. I admit to being pumped by something new to experiment with, but don't think I ever had any doubts in my other, normal loads. Shot side by side like yours were, my standards have been doing what they mostly do. The bullets are from the same lot, as is the lube and powder. In fact they were loaded in the same session as the small primer loads. So, with such good early results it sure is worth a whirl. 
I am aware that the rifle primers might or might not help everybody's situation, but here it seems to be what my piece prefers. Now, if someone just had thoughts on that pistol primer question- since some find it advantageous in large pocket cases. 
It's a fun test, and welcome in light of the fresh, to me, chance for new knowledge. I will look ahead to using different bullets that have done well in this thing over time- If it gets any better than it has been thus far, I won't be able to contain myself. (with great hopes) I thank you. Smiley
  
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calledflyer
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #11 - Oct 14th, 2015 at 11:45am
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Well, I had hoped that some info concerning the pistol primers would surface, but non. So, I've decided to forego the pizzel primers and stick with the rifle versions. 
Still, my puttering with these cases will be fun. The chance to actually compare 'em with my other loads is a nice, and easy to do test. My only glitch so far has been in the realization that I had no way to decap the fired cases at first. Problem was resolved by digging deeper into my junk (see the thread about tossing stuff out). 
I invite anybody else who hears of, or has done any work with these small primer cases to chime in and relate their thoughts. One person stated that they really helped his black powder loads- so that's something for those of you using that powder. 
And, thanks to those of you have shared thoughts, I really like that about this gang.
  
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bnice
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #12 - Oct 14th, 2015 at 12:13pm
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One thing to keep in mind like everything else lots of primers vary. So if you do get scientific be sure and use multiple primer lots to verify if improvements are coincidence or in fact improvements.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #13 - Oct 14th, 2015 at 12:32pm
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I went back to my chrono book and looked for a side by side test but, I didn't have any Sad I had shot the same powder charges but, it was on different days, with different temps so, I can't be of help, in that way.

Regarding pistol primers, I've always used them with 4227, even pistol primers in large pockets. I had no damage, in my rifles (Hoch, HW & Clerke HW). Overall, I found that I got a little lower velocity when using pistol over rifle primers but, w/o side by side testing, I can't make a definitive  statement. I always used them as a tuning tool at matches and always used them with 4759 and BP with Rem 1 1/2.

Niether small or large had a distint advantage or I would have used just that one size.

Please do a side by side test and let us know your results.

Frank
  

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frnkeore
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Re: .32-40 and small primers
Reply #14 - Oct 14th, 2015 at 12:53pm
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One other thing of note. The 30 Americans are a Federal case and there is a difference in case capacity between them and the LP, Fed 30/30 cases. With my cases, it's .050cc. with the 30 Amer. having the smaller capacity. So, when you do your testing, please measure the capacity of both cases (at the same length) before you start. Most of my use of the 30 Amer was in my two 32/35's (.308 groove) so, the cases where the same length (1.88). 2.25cc for small pocket and 2.3cc for the large.

All other things equal, the small primer cases would give a little higher velocity but, with my use, I believe they give the opposite effect. If so, it would be because the flame isn't as powerful.

Primers are unique and don't always follow the "rules".

Frank
  

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