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argie1891
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bullet stability
Sep 4th, 2015 at 4:03am
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I was just looking at a chart for bullet stability and it lists the max length for a .323 bullet of 1.04 inches with a one in 15 twist.  my cpa 32-40 has a one in 15 twist. now I am sure my hoch .322 200 bullet is stable but it is right at the length listed. now I say stable but how stable?? does having it at the edge of stable make a difference. now I know others are shooting the same bullet and no  I don't want to sell my mould as it shoots very well. just wondering if this could be an issue and maybe a lighter bullet would shoot smaller groups.
  

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LRF
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #1 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 7:16am
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Twist calculations with regards to bullet diameter and  weight are just that, calculations. The Greenhill formula, the most generally used, is a good estimator but not perfect.
For your particular gun, barrel, bullet (shape, weight, length, alloy), powder, conditions are all a work in progress forever. Only one way to answer your question, trying a different bullet as in one shorter in length.
  
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40_Rod
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #2 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 8:46am
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If it's the bullet that I think it is its Hoch's copy a Barnett bullet. If it's that one I had a lot of success with it at 1450 F.P.S. in a 1 : 15" twist barrel.
40 Rod
  
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marlinguy
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #3 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 9:06am
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It's a calculator, and gives estimates. But not cast in stone, as bullet shape and design has a lot to do with stability too. I've had some long bullets, with weight forward, or hollow base design, that shot wonderful, even though they also pushed the limits of what is the norm. Regardless of length, I prefer the weight forward design. May not be a great ballistic coefficient, but they work well for me.
  

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calledflyer
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #4 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 12:49pm
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My second favorite .32 cal. bullet is one I got from the Jerry Simmons estate, unknown maker. It's .989 inch long, flat-point and not tapered, casts at 197 grains. It shoots really well in  fixed ammo. In a 1 : 16 twist barrel. My reading on the Greenhill says it ought to be a little shaky like you believe yours is. But, the gun likes it, and yours seems to like your combination, so just grin and keep shooting it. But, trying other bullets is always, always fun.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #5 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 1:27pm
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Back in the late 80's, I found that sortening a Ron Long spitzer, from 1.16 to 1.11, allowed it to stabilize in a 16 twist rifle barrel.

I believe it had about the ideal stability for that application. In competition, I shot a 200 yard, five, 5 shot group average of 1.282, using 14.8 gr of 4227, in a Douglas barreled HW.

After doing that, I found that using a constant number of 175 (instead of 150) in the GH formula, produced my bullet length for a 16 twist.

The astric was put in the wrong place, it was ment to indicate the small group in the CF match.

The bullet is the one that was used to shoot the groups.

Frank
  

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JLouis
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #6 - Sep 4th, 2015 at 2:14pm
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Joe your bullet is just fine in your 15 twist so not to worry. If that is the mould I sold you when you still had your CPA on order it liked a 1474fps. average in my CPA 15 twist. I shot a few 200yd. 250's with that bullet during load development it was one of favorites and stability even at lower velocities was never a problem while I was still going through the load development process. 

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argie1891
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #7 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 3:53am
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yes it is the same bullet and I am shrinking the groups all the time the more I practice the better I shoot somewhere I read that practice was a good idea. I meant that maybe if I shot a bit shorter bullet I might shrink the groups a bit more.. we are all after the same thing  one hole groups. so far I haven't shot a group that small and know I never will but striving to do the best you can do seems to be what it is about.  there are so many variables making perfect bullets charging the case with the exact amount of powder every time etc. make a whole lot of difference I used several wad materials and changed to using no wad and shrunk the group size, then I got some kapok and use just a pinch and groups got better damn just thinking about it makes me want to head to the range and try again. joe
  

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JLouis
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #8 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 11:50am
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Joe you will make it to that majical one hole group just keep turning over every rock and leave no rock unturned and when you think it can't get any better it can. In my rifle that bullet also liked the 1-16 alloy better than the softer ones.

JLouis
  

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frnkeore
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #9 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 11:55am
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Quote:
Joe you will make it to that majical one hole group just keep turning over every rock and leave no rock unturned and when you think it can't get any better it can


And don't forget to try good Spitzer bullets, too. They are also in that rock pile and well worth trying because of the lessened wind drift, deflection as some say.

Frank
  

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argie1891
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #10 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 1:42pm
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I was truly kidding about the one hole group but as I said that is what everyone of us is trying to do.
  

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JLouis
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #11 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 2:05pm
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Joe one slightly enlarged hole is being realistic and also very doable. I don't think anyone will ever shoot that majical one hole group but there are some in the jacketed benchrest game that have come remarkably close to it and we are right on their tail.

JLouis
  

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JLouis
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #12 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 4:21pm
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Joe I am one to try anything that comes to mind and I have to leave the range without yet one more thing to try in the past 15 years. In February of this year it was to work with the smallest and lightest bullet that I had on hand at 185.5 grains. The thought behind doing so was less recoil and tourqe thus less movement of the rifle in the bags. I was able to get the bullet to shoot real well with a grain less powder than I used with your bullet but the differance in recoil and tourqe was not as much as I hoped for. The additional advantage of using a slightly heaver bullet in unfriendly conditions proved to be the better way to go. I had hoped to get the bullet with two less grains than your bullet of which did provide the noticeable reduction I was looking for but the consistency in accuracy just wasn't there. The test was while using a Darr FBW rifle with a 16 twist in 32-40 and not my 15 twist CPA. I believe in the 15 twist CPA the decrease of two grains of powder or slightly more may have panned out but by that time I had just finished my 28-35 and I only had two months to get it shooting for our ISSA Regional so it was time to move on so I never gave it a try. I hope this is a little more helpful in answering your original question and or satisfies your curiosity of possibly trying a lighter bullet? 

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JLouis
« Last Edit: Sep 5th, 2015 at 4:35pm by JLouis »  

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craigster
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #13 - Sep 5th, 2015 at 5:49pm
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I've found this calculator: (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
to be very helpful. 

Predictions for a couple 1-10 25 cals were pretty much spot on.
  
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Re: bullet stability
Reply #14 - Sep 6th, 2015 at 12:29pm
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argie, I have the exact same CPA barrel a 1:15 in the Douglas barrel . I have the same Hoch 200 gr. mould that Paul Shuttleworth sold me with the rifle . The Hoch mould has a D at the end of the stamped numbers on the side of the mould . Paul told me that Hoch mould is custom built for his barrel and a 1:15 twist . I have never noticed any stability problems . At first I did have some bullet tipping issues because I was only using 13.8 grs. of IMR 4227, increased that to 14.2 grs and the tipping went away . Also never seen a key hole either with that combination . If that bullet needed a 1:14 twist rate then I believe Paul at CPA would sell that rifle with a 1:14 twist . Also my combination reads an average of 1425 fps on the chrono .
  
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