Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope? (Read 10623 times)
GeorgeC
Oldtimer
*****
Offline


ASSRA 11411

Posts: 521
Location: Madison, IN
Joined: Dec 27th, 2012
What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Jul 30th, 2015 at 9:43pm
Print Post  
I read the reactivated post on comparing scopes and also read that there is a 33" MVA scope for sell. (Very good price, BTW). 
What is the advantage of a longer scope, say 33" or 36" over a 23" or 28" scope of the same power?
Never having looked thru the longer scopes (I do have several Lymans, Unertls and a DZ), I would think that the target would not be as bright with a longer scope as with the shorter ones considering the objective lens are the same size.  I do realize that the farther apart the mounts are the finer the movements would be.  Inquiring mind wants to know.

George
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2015 at 12:03pm by GeorgeC »  

Never mind the mule. Just load the wagon.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
JLouis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 10625
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #1 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 10:23pm
Print Post  
The three important factors for a scope are optical clarity, precise and repeatable windage and elevation adjustments and good light gathering properties. It really doesn't matter what the length is if it can meet those three aspects no matter how high or low the power.
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bent_Ramrod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1475
Location: Southern Arizona
Joined: Feb 8th, 2006
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #2 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 10:32pm
Print Post  
Mostly period Cool factor.  I thought I wanted a full-length one myself, but Jim Gier of MVA pointed out that it might not be possible to make adjustments for long range with a scope that long.  Also, the tube extending to the end of the barrel would mean having to clean the smoke deposits off the lens.

I still wanted one, and I still do.  But I went with the 28" version.  The spacing of the blocks on that length allows one MOA per division on the elevation adjustment, and the Cool factor is still Moderate-to-Severe.  I did notice at the Quigley this year that I was pretty close to the top of the elevation on the 805-yard Buffalo.  I doubt I'll be able to get to 1000 yards without a special height rear block.

A friend has the shorter MVA scope; I think it's the 23".  As far as I can determine, the optics and clarity are the same.  They are all six power, which is the maximum allowed for BPCR competition.

Full marks to Jim for his wise counsel.  He really wants his customers happy; MVA is a great company.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 2358
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #3 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 10:33pm
Print Post  
I think the shorter ones have the advantage.  Lower weight so you can keep the weight in the rest of the rifle, plus the optics are further away from the crud that comes out of the muzzle. Just my opinion though as I haven't owned the longer models.

I have two of the 23" ones and like them.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #4 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 10:48pm
Print Post  
If the scope is long enough to use bases that drift into the existing dovetails, you don't have to drill a bunch of extra holes in the barrel (and ruin factory marks if that's where you need to position a screw mounted rear base), and the rifle can remain in factory condition if you later remove the scope. 
Many long scopes have the same optical working length of a shorter scope, and have a simple dust lens installed at the front of the tube ahead of the actual objective lens.
That way you can just cut a scope body length to suit various different barrel lengths without redesigning the  optics system.
The brightness of the light reflected off the target (some 200 yards distant) to the front of your scope isn't going to change much if the front of your scope is 6" or 12" closer to that target. 
Yes, you do obtain finer adjustments as the distance between bases increases, but you also use up more of the total available range of adjustment built into the mounts faster as well.
There are always tradeoffs.
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mike Gish
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 183
Location: colorado
Joined: Jul 6th, 2006
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #5 - Jul 30th, 2015 at 11:28pm
Print Post  
I have a 33" on a Sharps rifle that I had to have Steve Earle make a two step rear block to get the elevation I needed for the longer ranges. IMO you don't gain anything with the longer scopes other than the COOL factor.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


deleted posts and threads
record holder.

Posts: 11582
Location: Why, out West of course
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #6 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 2:59am
Print Post  
My Seth Millard slug gun sports a very long Parsons scope. Using what fits. 

         Joe.
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SSShooter
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 2923
Location: Southern NJ
Joined: Aug 1st, 2010
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #7 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 7:24am
Print Post  
With the MVA scopes (cannot comment on other 'long' scopes), the big advantage to the longer scopes compared to the 23" scope is that any of the longer scopes on a 17" block mounting distance adjust directly in MOA (each large line on the adjustment screw is 1 MOA) and the 23" scope works in something like 0.3 MOA or other fraction of an MOA. I can count the large (1 MOA) and small lines (0.2 MOA) easily, but trying to figure out the 1.5MOA for the large line and 0.3 MOA per small line on the 23" scope would befuddle my mind in the heat of battle. As all the MVA scopes have the same diameter objective lens I would think the difference in light gathering (brightness) between them is negligible.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
Back to top
GTalk  
IP Logged
 
.22Hepburn
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 809
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: Feb 18th, 2008
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #8 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 7:41am
Print Post  
There is no power limitation for scopes in BPCR competition.   
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 16425
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #9 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 9:32am
Print Post  
Considering barrel lengths, a 17" spacing for a very long scope would be tough to do without drill and tapping, thus cancelling the advantage of mounting it in the dovetails. 
I have a long scope on one of my Hepburns, and it really limits how far you can shoot. Runs out of elevation quickly.
  

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 2358
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #10 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 10:09am
Print Post  
Glenn you are right about the odd spacing on the 23" scope.  You have to be careful so you don't make a mistake.   There is a positive side to it though.  Less elevation to reach the longer ranges which keeps your cheek a bit closer to the stock.   I haven't used my 23" scopes past 500m, but they have piles of elevation left so would have no trouble at 1000 yards.

There are a number of people switching out the rear mounts for the DZ Arms ones.  I think that's a good idea.  No backlash and easy to read.

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GeorgeC
Oldtimer
*****
Offline


ASSRA 11411

Posts: 521
Location: Madison, IN
Joined: Dec 27th, 2012
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #11 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 12:02pm
Print Post  
Thanks for all your replies and opinions.  If anyone else would like to share, by all means do so.
Another question to throw out.  What is the recommend spacing for the 23" and 28" MVA scopes?  My DZ is 20" OAL and the recommend spacing is 7.2".
  

Never mind the mule. Just load the wagon.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
uscra112
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4079
Location: Switzerland of Ohio
Joined: May 7th, 2007
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #12 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 1:42pm
Print Post  
Hmmm.  I think the reason that the old scopes were always so long had to do with the lens-making process.  Long focal length lenses are easier to grind and polish accurately, or were in the 19th century.  Also long F/L lenses don't have nearly as much chromatic aberration.   That's what I retain from my limited foray into mirror-grinding for telescopes, back in the '70s.  Of course the wider spacing between mounts has a positive effect.
  

<div class=
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 2358
Location: lower mainland, B.C.
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #13 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 3:34pm
Print Post  
MVA recommends 10.34" between blocks.  This gives 0.003" of elevation for one minute of angle.  Each of the small marks on the screw is 0.001".

Chris.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BP
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8039
Location: Westside
Joined: Aug 27th, 2006
Re: What Is The Advantage Of A Long Scope?
Reply #14 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 4:25pm
Print Post  
uscra112 wrote on Jul 31st, 2015 at 1:42pm:
Hmmm.  I think the reason that the old scopes were always so long had to do with the lens-making process.  Long focal length lenses are easier to grind and polish accurately, or were in the 19th century.  Also long F/L lenses don't have nearly as much chromatic aberration.   That's what I retain from my limited foray into mirror-grinding for telescopes, back in the '70s.  Of course the wider spacing between mounts has a positive effect. 

Good points.
The longer tube gives you more wiggle room to make optic component position adjustments when the grinds of the lenses didn't/don't come out to spec, and the focal points have some variations from the designed specs.

While not a long scope, back when WRA was still making the A5, Winchester published a chart for their No. 2 and No. 1 mounts with the values for each "point" of adjustment at different ranges.
The No. 2 mount was shown with values using a 7 3/16" base spacing (only 0.0125" closer than the 7.2000" spacing later adopted by Lyman and others) listed from 50 feet to 1000 yards, and also using a 6" spacing with values for the same range of distances.
The No. 1 mount was shown using the 7 3/16" spacing with values from 50 feet to 200 yards.
Base spacing, TPI used on adjustment screws, graduation marks spacing, etc all interact for POI shift.

Not knocking their scopes and mounts, but MVA's 10.34" base spacing just doesn't match up with any of the pre-existing base mounting screw holes I have available, and since I won't "swiss cheese" my barrels by drilling and tapping additional holes, I use something else.
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint