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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Saeco #732 mold for 32-40 (Read 21311 times)
John Boy
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #15 - Jul 19th, 2015 at 11:45pm
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The subject of what is the better flux when casting is discussed in the interesting article: Fluxes for Casting Alloys ...
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Read towards the end of the article about pine rosin

The flux I use came to me as what was used in the gas burner pots to sweat lead cable sleeves in the electric utility industry.  I have no idea what it is but it far surpasses any flux I have ever used.  It is a yellow/white solid that came in large chunks.  I melted it in a double water boiler and re solidified it into cakes. I gave several cakes to a commercial caster and he swears by it now after I fluxed a few pounds of his purchased hard ball ingots and it contained 34% pure black/gray dross.  So much for commercial 92-6-2 ingots that are sold
  
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Pentz
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #16 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 12:09am
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Being cheap about the wrong things and frugal with those that are right, I gathered up a can of fine sawdust from a shop saw that had been cross-cutting a batch of really pitchy pine planks.  Works good for me, although I am sure it is not the best.
  

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JerryH
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #17 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 12:34am
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Pitchy pine sawdust is what my friend I learned to cast from always used. Seemed to work just fine. He now uses bees wax because I supply him with it.

My friend Rich turned me on to some flux from Arthur Green. It's amazing stuff, the best I have ever used. 

Unfortunately Arthur Green is no longer in business. Guess it will be bees wax for me now.

JerryH
  

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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #18 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 1:45am
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Marvelux flux always rusts my lead pot. Think the label says it will not rust your lead pot, huh? Sad

I use old bullet lube for fluxing.

Never lube a mold with wax oil or bullet lube.

Soapstone works excellent for dry lube and keeps lead from sticking to the sprue plate and mold. 

Hoch molds often need adjustment and vented. Once you get it right they're hard to beat. 

     Joe.
  

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Brudford01
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #19 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 10:22am
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John Boy you do have a nice list there of different molds , however my Hoch mold is not listed among your list . Hoch 322 200 D . Paul Shuttleworth say's , " the D is for a Douglas barrel . " He went on to say the Douglas barrels are really cut small and very exact. If the bullet is not exactly .322 it is not going to shoot in this barrel . I will take and try all the advice on this current post before ordering the Saeco # 732 . I scrubbed out  the mold with brake cleaner and a brush and will not use any mold release . Here is the 200 yard target from the first day out with the new CPA a four shot group. I was very happy with this . The bullets for this group were cast back in Dec. 2014 with scrap lead of a unknown alloy  with a little tin solder from a spool thrown in . Bullets were a perfect .322" . Bullets sat until June 2015 . Using the same lead mix , flux and mold release and same casting temp I have not been able to dublicate a bullet that will shoot like these . Thanks for the help .
« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2015 at 10:55am by Brudford01 »  
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JackHughs
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #20 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 10:49am
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My shooting has deteriorated over the years but my casting ability has improved with age.  Here's what I do to produce excellent bullets.

1. Clean the pot and ladle with boiling water and a wire brush. Be sure all traces of old (unknown) alloy are removed.
2. Fill the pot with RotoMetals 20/1 alloy.
3. Use a casting thermometer and cast at 750-775 degrees.
4. Do not use flux of any kind.  After each casting session, refill the pot with sprue and new alloy as needed. Use a long spoon to stir, and scrape the sides and bottom of the pot while stirring.  The carbon in the rust scraped from the sides is all the flux you will ever need.
5. Stir until the crap on top turns to a light fluffy grey residue then skim.
6. Remove all traces of Frankford Arsenal mould prep from your mould.
7. Do not smoke your mould.
8. Buy some "Mould Prep" from Buffalo Arms.  This is colloidal graphite in Isopropyl Alcohol.
9. Use the Mould Prep to lube the locating pins and lightly coat the top of the mould and the underside of the sprue plate.  Make sure that no Mould Prep seeps in the mould cavities.
10. Cast with a full ladle.
11. Hold the mould sideways.  Bring the ladle into full contact with the sprue plate and then rotate the mould and ladle together to fill the mould.
12. Be patient. It will take quite a few bullets to "season" the mould.

Good luck.

JackHughs 
  

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gunlaker
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #21 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 11:09am
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Bruford, I should mention that the Hoch mold I have that doesn't work too well in my CPA is also a "D" mold.  Until this thread I did not know what that meant.  My rifle has a Badger barrel.   The bullet only engraves on the bottom bands so doesn't have very good alignment.   I have a new CPA rifle with a Douglas XX barrel on it.  I haven't tried that bullet in it, but will.  The bullet fits my RKS barreled Ruger pretty much perfectly though.   

Chris.
  
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John Boy
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #22 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 12:00pm
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Quote:
however my Hoch mold is not listed among your list . Hoch 322 200 D . Paul Shuttleworth say's , " the D is for a Douglas barrel . " He went on to say the Douglas barrels are really cut small and very exact. If the bullet is not exactly .322 it is not going to shoot in this barrel .

Brudford - take Paul's advice to the bank!
* Drop the forearm of your 32-40 and the Douglas barrel will be marked for it's land & groove dimensions.  My Douglas barrel is marked .312 - .3201 meaning the groove depth is 0.0081.  This really is not a shallow groove depth. IMHO, shooting a smokeless .320 diameter bullet that is groove diameter will also provide good groups
* My Hoch 322-200 is not marked with a "D" and the base diameters are 0.320
Quote:
The bullets for this group were cast back in Dec. 2014 with scrap lead of a unknown alloy  with a little tin solder from a spool thrown in . Bullets were a perfect .322" . Bullets sat until June 2015 .

OK, let's determine how to cast fatter bullets:
Put this website in your references. A section is Cast Bullet Reference on Lead Alloy ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links);
Read the "Alloy Shrinkage of Cast Bullets section and memorize this wording: "From the above two tables it can be seen that the softer the alloy and the larger diameter the bullet that more shrinkage will occur."
Meaning the harder the alloy, the less shrinkage!  So probably your scrap lead of an unknown alloy was either range lead or clip on wheel weights.  Range lead Bhn hardness can be any hardness under the sun.  COWW's come in 2 harnesses depending on the manufacturer ... Bhn 12.5 or 15.4.  Bhn 15.4 is the approximate hardness of Lyman #2 which is ~Bhn 16. You will have to have a lead hardness tester to determine the hardness of any wheel weights if you have some and use it   
Here are some recipes to make Lyman#2:
Recipe 1:
    9 lbs of wheel weight lead (clip-ons, not the stick-on ones)
    1 lb of 50/50 lead/tin bar solder.*
Recipe 2:
    4 lbs of linotype
    1 lb of 50/50 lead/tin bar solder.
    5 lbs pure lead (here's where you can use those stick-ons)
... or just use Bhn15.4 COWW's that is close enough to Bhn16 
You posted that you had 322-200's that were I believe 0.324.  Don't throw them out, just order a .322 lube sizer from Lee Precision and squeeze them down.

From the looks of your target - your over the issues and on your way.  Congratulations

J Louis-what diameter are your Hoch 322-200 bullets?
  
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Brudford01
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #23 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 12:17pm
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John Boy you are correct sir , I did throw a lot of wheel weights in the mix . Back then I was casting for a Low Wall 38-40 and just made a soup pot mix of everything I had ! I guess I just lucked out with some perfect bullets. I should of written down what I was throwing in my 10 lb. pot .I'am actually in my garage today adding pure lead ,some hard cast and some 20:1. So far I"am at .321". I'am documenting the alloy mix and when I get the perfect .322 I will have it .
  
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JLouis
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #24 - Jul 20th, 2015 at 2:59pm
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John the Hoch Mould was .319 tapering up to .322. I sold it to one of the fellows on this site for his new to him CPA.
I moved away from the tapered bullets quite sometime back, I have found that a cylindrical bullet provides better results in regards to an increase in consistant accuracy. The nose on a tapered bullet has to move back substantially to enable the bullet to completly fill the grooves. Thus the odds are greater for the nose to move / slump off and no longer being central with the bore. A cylindrical mould is harder to come by and the bullets do seat a little harder so it might not be a good choice for use with a CPA plugged case seater. If one is using a mechanical seater I highly recommend their use.

JLouis
  

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John Boy
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #25 - Jul 21st, 2015 at 6:12pm
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Brudford, here's some words on the Redding Mold website that might interest you to reduce your current project casts to reduce base diameters and if you decide to buy the 732 mold ...
Quote:
Bullet Sizes & Weights – How to Vary Them
The bullet diameters and weights presented in this list are based on the use of Taracorp’s Lawrence Magnum bullet alloy (2% tin, 6% antimony, 1/4% arsenic, 91.75% lead).

Bullet diameters and weights will vary considerably depending on the lead casting alloy used. This variation can be as much as 1/2% on the diameter, and 8% on the weight among the most commonly used casting alloys. For example, a .358-158 grain bullet might show a diameter variation of .002", and a 13 grain difference in weight.

Of the most commonly used alloys, wheel weights (.5% tin, 4% antimony, 95% lead) will produce bullets having the smallest diameter and heaviest weight, with such bullets running approximately 1/3% smaller in diameter and 3% heavier than bullets cast with Taracorp's metal. Linotype will produce bullets with the largest diameter and lightest weights. This alloy will produce bullets approximately 1/10% larger and 3% lighter than Taracorp. Other alloys of tin and antimony, with antimony content above 5%, will produce bullets with diameters and weights falling between those cast from wheel weights and linotype.

Alloys containing little or no antimony will cast considerably smaller than wheel weights and in some cases will produce bullets too small for adequate sizing.

Within the limitations given above, the weight and diameter of a cast bullet can be adjusted by varying the
alloy’s antimony content.

The size and weight of bullets of a given alloy will also vary according to casting temperature. Higher temperatures will result in greater shrinkage as the bullet cools, thereby producing a slightly smaller and lighter bullet than one cast of the same alloy at a lower temperature.


As a casting 'cook book' I found this explanation to be an excellent reference casting any bullet  Smiley 
My COWW inventory is low that contains antimony but 55 lbs of linotype is sitting on the floor that has 12% antimony should I need some of it, plus 280 lbs of monotype that has 19% antimony !  Wink

John, glad I found this Redding overview because the Saeco 538 is 0.324 nominal diameter!
  
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JLouis
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #26 - Jul 21st, 2015 at 8:28pm
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John interesting reading!
I spent a little over a year experimenting with harder alloys containing antimony, Lino, hardball, Lyman #2 etc. and I shot some really nice 200yd. targets but in the long run the consistency in accuracy just didn't materialize for me so I went back to lead and tin alloys. I found 1-18 lead tin to be the best all around with 1-16 the best for my use. The harder seems to be the better if leading does not become a problem of which I started to experiance at 1-10. The nose slumping of a bullet is not conducive to good accuracy and any increased hardness to minimize it is an extreme advantage based on my personal experiance. A friend of mine did catch box tests with 1-20 and found nose slumps from 5 to 12 thous. with the spitzer bullets and there long unsupported noses.

JLouis
  

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JLouis
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #27 - Jul 21st, 2015 at 8:31pm
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I might add that those results were with breach seated bullets and not fixed.

JLouis
  

" It Is Better To Now Have Been A Has Been Than A Never Was Or A Wanna Be "
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John Boy
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #28 - Jul 22nd, 2015 at 12:54am
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John, you mention 1:16 alloy and nose slump... Dan Theodore, a BPCR gun crank played around with alloys with large bores, particularly the Mini Groove (Money Bullet) he invented for Dr Keith Lay - a top ranking BPCR long range shooter.  Dan did a subsequent full detail (with bullet pictures) of the pluses using this 1:16 in an issue of Black Powder Cartridge News.  Here's a recap of the 1:16 that Keith sent to me before Dan did the BPCR article...

Dan tested an alloy of 97.5/1.25/1.25 which he says equals the 8.2 BHN hardness of 16-1 lead/tin.

But, a different alloy has became his favorite because it is so stable after it's initial hardening period.

Dan calls that his three-seven alloy. It is three parts Lyman #2 and seven parts pure lead.
It contains 97% lead, 1.5% tin and 1.5% antimony.
After 18 hours, it hardness tests at 9.8 BHN, and remains at that level for (at least) a year.

It is hard enough to hold the rifling in fast twist barrels, and prevents nose slump in paper patched bullets with the Money nose.


Note the ... It is three parts Lyman #2 and seven parts pure lead instead of a 1:16 straight Sn & Pb.  I now have one casting pot dedicated to the three-seven alloy for BPCR bullets.  Next batch of 32's & 38's will be cast with this alloy mix
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JLouis
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Re: Saeco #732 mold for 32-40
Reply #29 - Jul 22nd, 2015 at 10:34am
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Interesting John thanks for sharing!
  

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